fast

[john -]

Perhaps i misunderstood sir - But is not an early death and the afore mentioned approach diametrically opposed - i did some research

no post or thread is wasted - it can all lead to something newly discovered - pith has its good points but conversation is sublime

SWAYLOCKIAN

At the core of all this are the contributors themselves. Without the endless questions, answers, arguments and humor, Swaylock's wouldn't exist. Paler refers to contributors possessing the "Swaylockian" mentality.


"They're soulful, sincere, serious, but have a great sense of humor and a real caring side. I'm constantly impressed with how cool some of the people are? the intelligence level is high and intense, as is the level of care and concern. Some of them remind me of the guy who taught me how to surf? how he instilled in me [at the age of 14] a sense of water ethics, etiquette and style. One of the biggest ideas he impressed on me was to surf with the wave, not against it? Don't try to rip it apart, just become part of the wave. I've carried that with me and I think there are a lot of people on the forum that have that same sort of perspective."



dorje

ps The evangalical and appocolyptic trend of our times should be fought against - for instance, in that most Chatholic of countries Irleand - boredom and geenteel conversation over a peat coloured beverage is a carefully cultivated pleasure

[Roy Stewart]

Roy, I do believe there is a cap on velocity for a given wave. You may want to read the thread "20 statements re tri vs quad..." in the Kneeboard Design section. Start at about page 10 or so. I understand that max velocity would be acheived in freefall of the wave being ridden, ie the least friction. It seems there could be other factors which could increase velocity, but the sum of them would still have a cap. Oh yeah, please understand I don't know jacksh!t about this, hopefully others who do will chime in if they feel the need.

Perhaps kneeboarders are faster in the average velocity of a given ride. I'll buy that one. Jeff.

Actually there is no 'cap' to the speed which can be achieved on a given wave. There's always a bit more speed to be squeezed out via a reduction in friction. The top speed is not necessarily in a freefall drop. The top acceleration will be most likely in a freefall drop, but the time available during the drop is very short. Going down the line, on the other hand, the rate of acceleration will be somewhat less, but on a wave of even average length the time available for acceleration is greater.

Certainly kneeboarders are able to avoid wind resistance. This can be a significant advantage at higher speeds or on offshore days.

[lowrider]

Speaking of reduced friction, this may be of interest;
the so-called 'jet bottom'; see
http://www.surf1770.com/
There is very little by way of explanation of how it works, but it appears to
scoop air bubbles under the board via the channels from the nose and gives the sensation of 'floating across the wave'.
Who knows what happens when you try to turn the thing but sure looks impressive!




how about quad vs. 'niner' ??

[Jon Manss]

OH Boy hear we go again! The floating on air theory with a new twist. Does any one remember chanals,spheres, small grooves. How about air ducts forcing air through the deck to the bottom? Been there, seen that and over it. But I'll keep an open mind.

[fooj]

I'm out. Back on the wall like a fly.

[lowrider]

[Bryan Jackson]

When debating how fast one can go on any given wave, what we are in effect asking is how fast is that wave breaking and can we keep up with that wave as it breaks?

The falling lip is moving at a greater speed than the swell is traveling forward (i.e. towards the shore). This is a fact of physics, period.

Therefore, determine how fast a wave is breaking (i.e., peeling off), and you will have determined how fast it is theoretically possible to surf on that wave.

The fastest breaking wave is a total close out, yet to surf such a wave we would have to have instant and infinite acceleration in order to make it. Not too many people, if any, are capable of surfing such waves.

Surfer's Path recently had a good article on Ma'alaea in Hawaii. Probably one of the fastest waves on the planet capable of being surfed. Set up your bottom turn and go as fast as possible in a straight line. Pray you make it. Very few, if any surfers, pump when surfing that wave.

Pumping per se does not necessarily increase your speed. Some board designs require pumping to attain THEIR maximum speed in certain situations, but that is an idiosyncrasy of that particular design, nothing more.

Surfboards do have a Terminal Velocity, that is, a maximum possible speed they can possibly move through the water. This is dependent on several factors, for example, the amount of wetted surface area, flow characteristics, etc., and a surfboard's Terminal Velocity is NOT determined by any given wave's speed.

However, the faster the wave the closer the board will be able to come to it's Terminal Velocity.

Kneeboards are faster on both a subjective and an objective level.

For example, the flex Spoon design was/is fast because it minimizes wetted surface area and maximizes flow charateristics by conforming to the shape of the wave.

A lot of this discussion/debate has already been covered in other threads on this site.

[MWROBERTSON]

Bryan,

A well thought out and written explaination of speed. One minor correction. I surfed Ma'alaea quite a few years back. It was about 6ft one the face. There were NO bottom turns! Mostly a sideways take off and a race through the almond eye. One inside, it was a cold, dark mind bending ride into

[john -]

Kneeboards are faster on both a subjective and an objective level.

For example, the flex Spoon design was/is fast because it minimizes wetted surface area and maximizes flow charateristics by conforming to the shape of the wave. .

Hi Bryan

I think you have left your Kneeboards are faster comment in thin air as whilst you use the spoon as an example....what about modern boards? What attributes do they have to support your contention - again this point is what i have been looking for

- what makes (in ones opinion) a modern KB FASTER than a standup -

lowrider - those spoons mabe rockets worth chasing - the number will come


dorje

[Smokin Rock]

this summer while riding my vector in small waves i was definitely going faster on the waves than the guys on longboards. IMO the reason was all the friction for the longboarders. all that rail in the water. the waves were pretty small so the shoretboarders were bogging pretty heavily. they were'nt really in the mix. in the medium zone (waves 5-15' faces) i don't think theres much of a difference between the guys on 6' shortboards and a kneeboarder on a 5-6' kneeboard. a good shortboarder can always minimize the amount of rail he has in the water.
in bigger stuff where the standups have to go to longer boards to get in while we are still on 6' boards i think we again start to have the advantage in speed. a kneeboard has much less rail in the water. speed can be so relative though. do we ever feel like we're faster than in a middle of of turn when we know we're actually slowing down a bit? friction is key in speed and can probably only be overcome by mass and weight. what i mean is on a kneeboard i can go faster than a 8' gun on a 8' hawaiian wave... but if you made the 8' gun out of solid wood, it would at a point become faster than the small light board. the tow-ins use both theories. reduce size and increase mass to produce boards which can outrun waves like jaws.

[Roy Stewart]

Pumping per se does not necessarily increase your speed. Some board designs require pumping to attain THEIR maximum speed in certain situations, but that is an idiosyncrasy of that particular design, nothing more.

Surfboards do have a Terminal Velocity, that is, a maximum possible speed they can possibly move through the water. This is dependent on several factors, for example, the amount of wetted surface area, flow characteristics, etc., and a surfboard's Terminal Velocity is NOT determined by any given wave's speed.

However, the faster the wave the closer the board will be able to come to it's Terminal Velocity.

Kneeboards are faster on both a subjective and an objective level.

For example, the flex Spoon design was/is fast because it minimizes wetted surface area and maximizes flow charateristics by conforming to the shape of the wave.

A lot of this discussion/debate has already been covered in other threads on this site.

In order to discuss the speed potential of a surfboard one must take into account the weight of the rider. Surfboards are propelled (apart from when being pumped ) by gravitational potential energy, which is directly proportional to the mass of board and rider combined. Thus any given board and rider combination will have a thrust dependent upon its mass.

Regarding pumping, if it is done correctly, pumping will always increase the speed of a board and rider, because it drives the board via muscular effort and thus increases the overall thrust available.

[Roy Stewart]

Kneeboards are faster on both a subjective and an objective level.

To show that kneeboards are faster than standup boards you would have to demonstrate that a surfboard designed for kneeling will always have a better thrust/drag ratio than a surfboard designed for standing.
I very much doubt that kneeboard design entails greater thrust, because gravitational potential energy (the main source of thrust) is dependent upon mass, not the posture of the rider. Thrust is also available via pumping, but it seems unlikely that kneeling is a better position for this activity than is standing.
It is also doubtful that kneeboard design necessarily entails less drag per unit of mass than other board designs. Certainly a compact posture means less wind resistance, but standup surfers also adopt compact postures when necessary.

Conversely it would be equally difficult to prove that standup boards are necessarily faster.

What I am hoping to see is a movement towards speed measurement via gps, so that we can all try to outdo each other by going faster!

[Flexman]

.

[Roy Stewart]

Nice one Flexman. Strictly speaking though, that surfcraft consists of George and his mat combined, so we should say that the craft weighs one G. Greenough + 16oz. Are you a flex freak? (I am).

[lowrider]

you beat me to the punch, Flexman!

The fastest craft out there is supposedly a half inflated surf mat;
virtually no displacement of water and little wake...
squeeze some hardness into it for extra hold or turn-in, as required.

I've heard that some of the young hotties here, the ones with open minds such as Rasta and Dain Thomas are switching on to this as another facet of the surfing experience.

dorje, much appreciated; that's if you're not interested yourself;
i'm geographically challenged way up here!