20 interesting statemente re quad v tri

What works & what doesn't and in what type of conditions. Got a "secret" only you and your shaper know???? Post it here... we can keep it quiet ;-)

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hart
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Post by hart »

steeno g'day..

you know, I never intentionally omit David from posts like this, because he duly belongs in such company.

you know that I believe that, full stop.

In context however, he remains the exception

besides, I have Northern Beaches blood running thru these veins..and it all becomes too bleedin' obvious for those who know

:D

especially, for men like you

:lol:

bruce

ps

go the 'aso'..

talk soon, I hope
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Post by Steeno »

I know that bruce, I just like to keep the book australian....not only the northern beaches

its a big country and we cant be everywhere and see everything and you know that.

you should be coming down for the bbq, so we can chat...hope your well
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hart
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Post by hart »

Wax

and their time is available for them..as it is for us.

And for your record ?

Kyle is not surfing my boards

Nov is not surfing my boards

PC (at his time of death) was not surfing my boards

Matty is splitting his time with Lukie

and Damo (apart from today) is retired

mate, I want to contribute to this website as an Australian surfer..so if I mention MR, Simon Anderson, TF or any OZ kneeboarder, please dont think that I am waving ANY other flag other than our own..

(cause I don't shape for those guys, either)

hart

and no, no emoticons suit

one surfer out of nine (and 10 if I count Parkesy)
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Post by TIMO »

Beeline wrote:do most thruster/tri riders find the quads tracky?

I have always been a quad rider but after I moved on to the tri's
thoroughly , I found the quads tracky and a bit constraining
in the 'complete freedom and flip a turn when you feel like it' dept.

Any one else?
I have alway surfed thrusters but did buy a quad to try out and from my piont of veiw for me, it was a mistake, I felt it limited my surfing and was very dissapionted to say the least. :x
On the bright side I went back to a thruster and ended up with a board of a life time . (very very happy) :D
The moral of the story is: if it works for YOU then all is well :D
cheers Timo
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Post by ross »

personal opinion i know ,but i reckon bruces list of surfers flogs waxs' list whether they ride for him or not.
its like comparing curren,occy,slater to bryce ellis,richie collins and richard marsh.still good surfers,but you get my point no?
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Re: Reynold number and boring caluclations

Post by MTBarrels »

headwax wrote: Characteristic length
5 in
Viscosity
.862 cP
Density
1000 kg/m³
Velocity
20 ft/s


RE=898134.570765662 (ie turbulent flow)


Characteristic length
24 in
Viscosity
.862 cP
Density
1000 kg/m³
Velocity
20 ft/s

RE=0.431104593968 (ie laminar flow)

In other other words: surfboards in the main have laminar flow, but in the important parts they have soemthing else.
Whoa...something is wrong here as Reynolds number increases with the characteristic length scale, so the Reynolds number based on a dimension of 24 inches should be greater than for 5 inches, i.e. :

Re = (flow speed x characteristic dimension)/(kinematic viscosity)

For a fin with a chord of 5 inches:
--------------------------------------

Avg. max speed of 48 measurements of a collection of shortboards, kneeboards, bodyboards, (1) longboard, ridden by various riders on waves ranging from chest high to 2x ovrhead surf was observed to be 19.5 mph (median = 19.6 mph)

Hence avg. max speed = 19.5 x (5280/3600) = 28.6 ft/sec = 343 in/sec = 872 cm/sec

Chord length = 4 in = 12.7 cm

Typical kinematic viscosity = 0.01 cm^2/sec

Re = (872 x 12.7)/(.01) = 1,100,000


For a length of 24 inches (e.g. average wetted length of the wetted area of a shortboard/kneeboard):
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re = 1,100,000 x (24/5) = 5,300,000


Note also that the Reynolds number determining whether the flow is laminar or turbulent depends on the shape of the object. The values of 2000-4000 are for flow in a pipe, but are not representative for flow about a foil or along a flat plate.

For a fin/foil, a Reynolds number of 1,000,000 is generally considered to be marginally into fully turbulent flow (significant reductions in the maximum "lift" force occur as the Reynolds number falls below this value).

For a flat plate (e.g. approximating the bottom of the board when taking the curvature of the wave into account), the transition depends strongly on the smoothness of the plate and the presence of any natural disturbances in the flow. According to Schlicting (Boundary Layer Theory, McGraw-Hill Science Series), the lower transition limit should be considered to be about 320,000; for exceptionally disturbance-free flows, laminar flow has been observed to Reynolds numbers of 1,000,000 (and higher).

Thus both the flow on the board and across the foil are turbulent (but the foil marginally so, and even less so for a foil with an average chord more on the order of 3 inches--e.g. a side fin).

The characteristic dimension in the Reynolds number should also not be used to estimate the spacing that determines whether two objects (significantly) influence the flow about each other. That typically depends on the alterations in the bulk flow, rather than the smaller scale turbulence within that flow.
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Post by willli »

beeline, you once called my experimenting with little trailers on Blast quad 'popsicle' fins. I always liked that name.

dorje, I'm truly a grom, only been kneeing 4 years. I consider 35 years riding standup part of my path to enlightenment. Coming from a thruster environment to kneeboarding, quads seemed to make sense. I never considered them tracky, always thought of it as HUGE projection. Of course I upgraded to even MORE projection with a Blast fish. But posts on this forum alerted me to the possibilities inherent in the aussie thruster kneeboards and a post from Hart concerning board design for the Great Lakes tipped the scale. He agreed to shape one for me and the result was the best board I've had in 40 years. Stop counting skegs. the whole board has to work for you.

Hart, 'ol Enzo has nothing on you. the 'seatwork' has been exceptional down to 37deg F water temp. Just about every 'important' surfer at my local has fondled Flashie. Obvious amor. BUT she's MY girl, and she dances with ME!
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Post by Beeline2.0 »

..
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Post by Beeline2.0 »

..
Last edited by Beeline2.0 on Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Steeno
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Post by Steeno »

I went out to a party last night after my last post, was on about my fifth beer, received a sms from bruce about this thread and having a chat, i like to have a chat with bruce, I woke up this morning and saw all this.

This post has turned into a classic.


Quads, thrusters you cant even begin to compare them, its about fin placement, not numbers.

Kneelo surfers from around this country, you cant even begin to compare them.

Say you had a thruster setup, equal size fins allround. Then you took out the thruster trailer fin and placed two smaller fins at the same tail distance as the fin you just removed, to create a quad(wide cluster)....what would be the difference? if any

Say you had a quad forward, tight cluster setup, big front fins, smaller back fins...you decide to take out the back small fins and place a slightly larger thruster fin at the same distance to the tail. Would there be a sustantial difference? if any

To me its placement, not numbers

To much concave with over edged rails, quad or thruster will make you board track[/b]
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Post by john - »

:roll: :roll: :roll:

willli, hart...now its my turn for the eye roll....nothing is static


the counting 1 2 3 fou.... was a self depricating suggestion that i was trying to count the fins on your Blast willli (in line with the description of it) to support the my contention that i think slow....der ah ...1 fin on that side and another little one.......that makes 2


recent posts at ksusa seemed to have resulted in this out pouring...no fear of men not in touch with their feelings here :lol:

i dont need to say girls do i darcy :wink:


willli

ive got a snapped tri fin tied to our garden gate as garden art...i was pissed that it snapped berore the quad arrived as i would have liked to have compared closely as many element of the boards were similar

still....

this morning i pulled a reo on a dumping section in front of the pack and i use to do the same on the tri and before that on the twin though ive got better with experience as one would hope - actually i had some great moments on the crozier single fin a Bells on solid 4 to 6 days!!!!

a good board is a good board...ive know some some surfers to make a meal outa a good board from surfing the thing 6 INCHES to far foward or back

and apart from farrer im still not convinced that what constitutes radical surfing is all that pretty - which is a whole different set of judgements that relate back to what board one wants and why

- it has been really interesting that many have enjoyed Dean Bould's surfing in "now and then" - i think a number of types of boards and fin set ups would allow him to surf in that manner


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Post by Bryan Jackson »

Headwax,

But of course, Anderson is playing semantics! Now why didn’t I think of that? :shock:

Why then, I ask, did the well respected science magazine ‘Discover’ publish his work (April 2001 issue) and the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association give his book, upon which his web site is based, the following review in their magazine, ‘Flight Training’? :P

Understanding Flight Reveals Aerodynamics

Among student pilots, there are varying degrees of enthusiasm for the science of aerodynamics. Some prefer knowing the equations behind the principles, but many are content to learn just enough to keep the airplane sunny-side up. Instructors find a quandary here: They don't want to bury an uninterested student in complexities, so they may gloss over important principles in order to keep things brief. In doing so, they risk introducing misconceptions. In fact, depending on their own training, they may not possess the depth of knowledge to explore these concepts with students who are intrigued by the math describing the motion.

Both parties can be satisfied with a new book, Understanding Flight, by David F. Anderson and Scott Eberhardt. Anderson, a scientist at Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory, and Eberhardt, an associate professor of aeronautics and astronautics at the University of Washington, are both private pilots. After laying the groundwork by introducing a few simple concepts - the right ones (emphasis added) - they go on to develop a different, more intuitive way of thinking about how airplanes fly. Later chapters delve into high-speed flight and aerodynamic testing.

The math is basic enough for any high school graduate to understand, and examples pepper the book. One comment: Side notes are used throughout to highlight unique facts about aviation and key points from the text. To clarify things for the reader, the publisher might look into making one kind of note a different color than the other.

Understanding Flight retails for $34.95 and is published by McGraw-Hill. The book is available in bookstores nationwide. For more information, visit the Web site ( www.books.mcgraw-hill.com ).
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