Kneeboarding At 3 G's

red · Post by **red** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:27 pm

Do spoons have to have displacement hull bottoms?

What happens with a concave (i.e. inverted spoon)? If the concave flattened under loading (turns, say), would this not overcome a major problem of concaves - that of sucking water in and not releasing it at low speeds? But at high speeds would it then allow the board to hydroplane, reducing wetted area?

john - · Post by **john -** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:10 am

red wrote: (who pull chicks because they kneeboard!).

well the corperate world cant be all bad eh red...if only we were young enough to flex like the spoon...and sting like a bee

Man O' War · Post by **Man O' War** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:22 am

FLEXMAN -- Thanks for weighing in with a photo worth a thousand words. It shows not only Derrick's progressive boards and what is meant by "modifying" your UDT's (he used a disk sander and 80 grit), but also a highly evolved specimen of the vehicle that predates the kneeboard and may postdate it, the mat.

Like you, I respect Derrick. He's committed and he's generous. At his age he also has more time left to experiment than the rest of us. I hope you and he both keep your eyes on threads like this. You're at opposite ends of the age spectrum but your knowledge and your ability to share it is a gift. I'd love to hear both your takes on Red's concave hull question.

BTW, according to Derrick, the "stringer" barely visible on the quad spoon actually is the remnants of the stringer from the original blank.

WALT -- Nice post, and by a respected vet. Thanks for describing your session and Terry's goodness. I'm with you that the ability to dive deep is a really attractive feature of spoons. You don't have to worry so much where you sit. Especially at Black's, wave one of the sneaker set clears the field, and you're there alone for two and three.

But you also touch on the nightmare scenario of a failed late take off over a coral reef. I shudder to think what happens if my non-buoyant spoon gets sucked over the falls. Forget my body--how's the board?

Man O' War · Post by **Man O' War** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 10:32 am

Maybe another reason spoons never took off is, as Walt was saying, they were little velos, roughly 5' x 21", fine for a George- or Lis-sized guy but a little frustrating for everyone else. I know in retrospect I could have made my first spoon a foot longer. My current one is scaled up from the velo dimensions for my 6', 180 lb frame. I also maximized the planing area per Dale's suggestion by giving it dead rocker from 1/3 back instead of 1/2, keeping the nose rocker under 4", and giving it a shallower hull. So far, I'm surprised at the planing ability I've seen in some pretty weak FL surf. What that translates into in bigger, better surf remains to be seen.

This leads to another problem, the blank. Clark makes a fish blank, the 63-C, so called because it's 6"3" in length. The good thing is the 25" width. The bad thing is all the kick in the nose and the tail. I had to slide my template forward to get away from the tail rocker. That didn't leave much up front. I barely squeezed my board out of that blank. I could have put the leftover pieces in my pocket. So if you're over 200 lbs and want to go to a 5'9" or 6'0", I think you're talking a different blank. The problem there is that normal surfboard blanks--at least, the ones I saw--don't reach the 25" width again until they're over 9'. That means another $50 and an awkward 3' of leftover foam, a waste.

I hope this info is helpful to someone out there.

barry · Post by **barry** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:37 pm

MOW
as for blank size....I believe mine come from a 69r ???
I hear the rocker is more friendly

my boards range from 5'11"- 6'6"
I dont know the width of the blank but it shapes a board at 22" with
foam to spare on each side.

Also I heard from Jon Manss that I was nominated by him to try out your spoon when you hand it off to Scott in June or July

I am looking forward to having the option of trying it out, those boards have intrigued me since i started kneeling and I am Stoked to get an opportunity
to ride it....hopefully more than once.
that is if I can pry it out of your brothers hands

Let me know if you can make it to the socal area on your journey west. would enjoy meeting up with you. Peace,

Man O' War · Post by **Man O' War** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:46 pm

I'm just going to keep dumping thoughts on this thread as long as the inspiration lasts and no tomatoes are thrown. In fact, I noticed on one of the other forums that a kneelo from Japan actually called this thread "silly," which made me a little paranoid until I realized it was probably just a translation problem. The word for "silly" in Japanese probably sounds alot like the word for "bitchin'"--easy to confuse.

I think the much longer boards and easier turning twins with trailers are better suited for the much older riders of today. Didn't Greenough once say,"Do you want to paddle or do you want to surf?"

This ambiguous Greenough quote was delivered by John and commented on by Scott M. It left me confused. What the heck is it supposed to mean? It could be interpreted about ten ways.

Till I remembered one of the oldtime, original spoon principals enunciated by Greenough, entrusted long ago to Flexman, and graciously passed on to me, which is: "The thinner the board, the better the general surfing and the better the feeling."

So someone says to George, "I'd try a spoon, but they don't float. I want something I can paddle." George replies, "Do you want to paddle or do you want to surf?" In other words, what is your ultimate goal? To feel good on the wave, or to feel good on the way to the wave? If a thinner board brings you a richer experience on these moving miracles called waves, isn't it worth the sacrifice in the paddling area?

That's my stab at it. Anyone else?

Man O' War · Post by **Man O' War** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:07 pm

Hey Barry,
Sorry, didn't see your post coming. I hate when that happens.

I've heard nothing but high praise about your riding, and it's true, Jon nominated you along with Scott as test pilots. That was before he knew it was going to be Scott's board, though. Fortunately for you, on his thread Scott called this board "a new member of the ksusa family." So Scott has already pried the board out of his own hands with own words. He will be happy to share it with you and the rest of "the family" that owns it.

I can't make it to SoCal. My wife and son and I have only three free days, Mon-Wed, June 13-15, before we have to fly back. We'll be making the trip over the hill with Scott and hope to meet up with Jon and anyone else from the famous SC crew, surf or no surf.

DM · Post by DM » Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:31 pm

hello all i'm the guy who shaped that quad spoon - man o war let me know about this thread - I enjoy reading and learning from here and other places but don't post much (anywhere). nothing against anything thats just me.

i dont consider myself a kneeboarder or mat surfer or footboarder or whatever, I just enjoy surfing on all levels and challenging myself, learning/having fun etc

basically i think flex-based craft are the future of surfing because of their variable shape - its just another level of making proven designs more efficient...which allows more speed and control and FEELING and thus freedom...plus theyre relatively unexplored so everythings fresh and new -keeps you stoked!

well the current shape on the board has an extremely hulled nose blended (crudely haha) to about a 1/4" deep single concave midboard to a mild (1/4-1/2" vee with 1/8-1/4"double concave within) spiral vee thru the fins and out the tail.

put it on a rail (if ur going fast enough) and the board gets some hull to it, and it really pushes you up the face, release that outside rail grap torque while at the top and it is reallllly fast on the downdrive.

biggest/best surf (and thus the fastest and hardest turns)i have had it in was 6-8' con with 10' sets on march 10; but I have had heaps of fun driving thru 3 foot shorebreak barrels on it - basically if its hollow and good shape any size is doable - if its kinda mushy but ok shape hopefully its 6'...

bottom line is just like any board - it has its pros and cons - but best vs best in my opinion it does allow more intense feelings of surfing (g's, speed, tube riding 'peacefully' thru implosions) in the right spot on the right wave.

artistically to me surfcraft experimentation is just that - always moving forward trying to improve- honesty with performance - stoke - non-pretentiousness - in the end personal between you and the surf

Lastly, those boards are really rough, i know heaps of you guys could do way better! Theres so much unexplored surf feeling out there

-imagine a bonzer bottom 5 fin flex spoon bottom turn! (i've been surfing a 6-0 x 18 1/4 x 2 1/4 campbell bros standup last couple months and really enjoying rail turns on it - a bit of single fin glide/thruster reliability vertical potential)

or a s-glass/carbon spoon with stacked long-grain balsa rails with carbon epoxy between each layer of balsa??

or mtbs foam center flex perimeter boards for variable rail shape? variable tail rocker?

or actually mastering a mat??

haha lotsa cool stuff out there to imagine/stay stoked on

Take care all thanks for putting up with my ramblings

tumak · Post by **tumak** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 5:16 pm

Hey dorje - Nice to see Karmapa's Dream Flag! So, do you know Traleg Rinpoche? I'll bet that you do. I lived and worked at KTD in Woodstock, and I met him there! Tashi Delek! -Karma Sherab Norbu (tumak)

Thanks, forum, for enduring this personal message.

Hi, Mark - I think this thread is really cool! I like that quote from Greenough about paddling vs. surfing.

Man O' War · Post by **Man O' War** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 8:05 pm

Mr Madison -- Nice first post. That was packed. Where's my hydrodynamics dictionary?

Keep coming back, OK. You really get the adrenalin going, you have no axe to grind, and that mid-20's perspective is powerful.

ScottMac · Post by **ScottMac** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 8:24 pm

Man O' War · Post by **Man O' War** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 9:09 pm

Hi Scott,
Let me say it in a positive way, as I should have: Derrick enjoys all mediums, he's not out to disparage any of them, so when he speaks on spoons, people will listen. He's a good ambassador.

As for getting one yourself, stay in touch with Jon Manss. That's all I can say.

Peace

MTBarrels · Post by **MTBarrels** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:17 am

Man O' War wrote:Maybe another reason spoons never took off is, as Walt was saying, they were little velos, roughly 5' x 21", fine for a George- or Lis-sized guy but a little frustrating for everyone else. I know in retrospect I could have made my first spoon a foot longer. My current one is scaled up from the velo dimensions for my 6', 180 lb frame. I also maximized the planing area per Dale's suggestion by giving it dead rocker from 1/3 back instead of 1/2, keeping the nose rocker under 4", and giving it a shallower hull. So far, I'm surprised at the planing ability I've seen in some pretty weak FL surf. What that translates into in bigger, better surf remains to be seen. ..<snipped>...

Just for reference:

I'm 68", 155 lb, 67 yo. The board that Walt rode (Cypselurus II = California Flying Fish) has the parameters:

Vintage: 1994
Length: 68 inches
Max width: 24 inches
Nose: 20.25 inches
Tail: 21 inches (twin fin, flex rail)
Rocker:
.... dead flat rear 30 inches;
.... 5/16 inch @ 48 inches;
.... 4-5/8 inches @ nose
Bottom:
.... Flat side to side at tail;
.... 3/8 inch bowl (actually more like slightly rounded/angled chines) at midpoint
.... 1/2 inch bowl 12 inches back from nose
Moderately hard rails all the way around (1/8 inch radius bottom to vertical, 1/4 inch radius vertical to deck rails forward; harder aft)

Intended Usage: Small wave board. Typically used to 1.0X to 1.5X ovrhd (also depends on hollowness)

Man O' War · Post by **Man O' War** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:28 am

MTB - Thanks for satisfying our curiosity about "C II" after the good reviews Walt gave it. It's actually a little bigger than mine and I outweigh you by 25 lbs, so you must be well supported.

What about the glass in the tail? Does your foam run all the way back? Also, fin depth and placement?

After ten years you obviously know your board top to bottom, have its strengths and limitations dialed in, and cherish it. This spoon found a good home.

markgnome · Post by **markgnome** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:36 pm

DM-- pure words, a highly evolved perspective

i took the spoon out for the second time today---i feel light years ahead of the first session. my feet felt better in the big fins. i'm using that concept (posted in the other spoon thread by John i think???) describing Mr. Greenough's "submarine dives under waves". basically i am starting my duck dive at least 10 yards before i would with my fish. i working on getting deeper under the water where its calm & i can hear the wave breaking above me.

i got the spoon to trim nicely on one continuously peeling wave. on another i was able to feel the beginnings of 2nd gear! i see what DM meant when he said something about riding "peacefully" through the tube. there is something silent in the ride. i can see how you would cruise through foams balls in the barrel. but not epic conditions today wind-slop really.

like any design it has it's weak points. but i'm stoked--there is much to learn--lots of potential there.

Man O' War---

i was hoping you could talk a bit about how you glassed over that tinfoil???