environmental concerns and board making

[Dunc]

The eco board subjuct is definitely a difficult one and one that could cause enormous debate. I have spent many hours looking into ways of creating a less toxic board and would love to have one. However I also agree with Albert and Headwax in many ways as every thing comes from the earth and could therefore be considered natural. Although somethings we use are combined in ways nature would not combine them. I also agree with Headwax as the earth will kill us off and cleanse itself if we are doing to much damage or should I say we will kill ourselves off and the planet will carry on.
Going back to the the subject of less toxic materials doesn't Dave Rastovich ride styrene boards with wood laminate exterior that is water proofed using plant oil?

[john -]

i always try to define natural as not man made - not synthetic

the diffrence between wool and polar fleece could be an example

semantics does come into play in justifying certain activities when we get environmental of even ethical/moral...oral sex and the draw back spring to mind

in terms of the earth however...it to is a finite resource and its a debate as to who wins...the forces of nature or the force of man's mind

how much of an effect do we think nucular testing underground has had on the tectonic plates that cause earth quakes...to what degree could they have intensified things

to some the only thing not finite is ones awarness/soul/mind/spirit...if this earth does not get us for our over indulgence it does not necessairly mean another realm wont purify us if we are not sensible (karma?)

but if we can pour energy into developing surfcraft i hope the same goes for the papermachie board...what an idea

[MTBarrels]

i always try to define natural as not man made ...<snipped>...

Well that would pretty much seem to wipe out kneeboards per se.

[albert]

I wanna talk about two things:

Firstly, I did a little digging on Toluene Diisocyanate (for more information look at http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/MHMI/mmg179.html). Turns out this substance is not as nasty as some may think.
The substance is considered a 'possible human carcinogen' which basically means they guess it causes cancer based on 'Limited evidence from animal studies and no human data'. Then they say that acute exposures (i.e. short term, high concentrations) may lead to

irritation of the respiratory-tract. Concentration-dependent effects occur, often after a delay of 4 to 8 hours and may persist for 3 to 7 days. High-concentration inhalation can lead to chest tightness, cough, breathlessness, and inflammation of the bronchi with sputum production and wheezing. Accumulation of fluid in the lungs can also occur.

Which basically means that if you are exposed to this stuff for 24 hours a day for about 8 days in concentrations that exceed ATSDR (Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease control) standards (which are doses about 10 times higher than OSHA standards). You can make your own judgements from there, but I think this stuff is pretty benign compared to some of the stuff I run into in my limited research.

But thats not all, we should also look at chronic exposures (i.e. occupational and residential exposures), in which case the ATSDR names the following as the health effects

Workers who chronically inhale low levels of toluene diisocyanate may have minimal or no respiratory symptoms, then suddenly develop asthma.

Thats pretty much it, there is some talk about sensitization but only leading to asthma as an endpoint.

Therefore, as far as the discussion for Toluene Diisocyanate, in my head its been put to rest. The only other thing worth noting from the digging I did was that when it burns (at about 121°C or 250 F) one by product is Cyanide, which is a very nasty customer to deal with. But that kinda brings me back to my original point (we are better off now than what we were in the past) because you dont see many people burning surfboards on the beach as some voodoo ritual to make waves magically appear.

Secondly, I wanna say a few things about the so called 'eco' board. I dont know much about any specific instances, but if Rasta runs around with a 'all-natural' board then good for him, I however am highly skeptical. If there was an eco board, that could be made for a slightly higher price than commercial surfboards, someone would have had the bright idea of mass marketing them to the enviro community. I for one, would have been excited to do some reading on it, and if it put my skepticism to rest, I would have gotten all my boards in the future made from it (particularly if they were 100% biodegradable, since most if not all broken surfboards end up in landfills). However, this has not happened so from here all I hear are rumors.

I also like to say 'good post red' not only is foam inert, but it has a very low bioaccumulation factor overall (hence, once you breathe it in, it doesnt stay in your system for too long).


well. thats my rant for the morning.

[quadfin]

I have many years in the oil bizness..most of it processing and handling product and waste streams generated by the petrochemical industry. These products will be produced regardless if used in surfboards. Can't think of any component of a surfboard being shelved if the surf industry stopped using them. Key is the understanding and use of these products by the end users...shapers/glassers/sanders. Would guess that product awareness and use of proper PPE (Personal Protective Equipment) is probably a "3" on a scale of 1-10 in the surf industry. Most shaping and glassing rooms that I have seen are ventilation nightmares.

[john -]

i always try to define natural as not man made ...<snipped>...

Well that would pretty much seem to wipe out kneeboards per se.

most boards, boats and many other things too mt including this lap top whose plastic housing is treated with fire retardent chemicals that actually impede brain development - gets into breast milk and basically puts babies on the back foot when mums think they are trying to do the best and most NATRUAL thing for their kid

dont get me wrong..im not a against the use of synthetics in appropriate measure and I WOULD NOT WANT TO LOOSE THE CRAFT OF SHAPING as i mentioned in the computer shape threads

but with all the creativity going on its perhaps worth seeing if anyone has some environmentaly creative ideas

imagine if a papermachie blank could be developed and shaped and a less toxic glass system used

[john -]

we should all check our info AND spelling before we post..that way we have the best chance of being understood

we should swap jobs hart!

[john -]

Hey Wax,

recycled paper!!! or other stuff!!!

watching the inventors recently and some guy invented concrete made outa waste products that reduces both waste...obviously...and green house release ...concrete in buildings is apparently worse than farting cows and cars

apparently the concrete passed the "is it strong and lasting enough test"?

He won that nights prize....a new kneeboard

[albert]

Hey Wax,

recycled paper!!! or other stuff!!!

watching the inventors recently and some guy invented concrete made outa waste products that reduces both waste...obviously...and green house release ...concrete in buildings is apparently worse than farting cows and cars

apparently the concrete passed the "is it strong and lasting enough test"?

I remember in one of my lectures how this one guy was praised all over the place for using waste wood and other materials to fill concrete. The stuff was strong, and it passed all the tests, except for the human health risk assessment. Most of the stuff he was using to bulk up the concrete was wood treated with cromium arsenic and the like, as well as industrial waste that was treated with other crap like that. Recycling in itself is not the way to go on all these things. You also have to look at the impacts of using these materials compared to standard materials. In the end, his idea was shot down by government agencies, unless he treated the materials prior to blending them into the concrete, his argument was that the contaminants are enclosed in the concrete and will not move. His argument was countered by the scenario of someone crashing into a road divider and breaking the concrete, releasing dust with these materials into the air.

If you think about it, to begin the concept of the 'eco' board, you have to look for materials similar to resin and foam in nature. As far as I know there are none, hence why we synthesize resin and foam for our efforts. If anyone can get past that one, good for them, but until then I remain very skeptical of such easy quick recycling schemes.

[john -]

Hey Albert

healthy to be skeptical yet i suppose the whole point of shooting the breeze about this is to attempt to actulize this

"You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete." -R. Buckminster Fuller

[DarcyM]

Firstly, I did a little digging on Toluene Diisocyanate ... Turns out this substance is not as nasty as some may think.
The substance is considered a 'possible human carcinogen' ...

You're right in that the (known) end effects of TDI exposure may not be as bad as some other chemicals, although I tend to err on the side of caution when "possible human carcninogen" is listed. [asbestos was a potential carcingen since, oh, about 1929 before it was finally regulated as a carcinogen in 1986 or so.]

However, as a budding toxicologist Albert, you should remember that dose is a very important aspect of every chemical out there. Even water in a high enough dose is toxic. When considering whether a chemical is "nasty" or not, I consider the percentage present, volatility (how easy it is for the chemical to become airborne) and the legal limits -- the permissable exposure limits. The lower the limit, the less of it you have to be exposed to in order to suffer the ill effects. Highly volatile chemicals like acetone and ammonia also have a strong odor -- you can tell when they're there. TDI, like most isocyanates has almost no odor -- you can't tell when it's there. Luckily it's not very volatile, but that doesn't make much difference when the chemical is actually "blown" into the air.

Lastly (sorry to bore all of you with details), the exposure limit (here in CA) for Acetone, for instance, is 750 ppm. Meaning you can leagally be exposed to an average of 750 ppm of acetone in an 8 hour workday and not be considered "overexposed". The limit for TDI is 0.005 ppm.

Albert -- pm or e-mail me if you've got questions. I'm an Industrial Hygienist, in case you're wondering, so I can send you some good links and resources. You're enthusiasm for this topic is great, good to see you doing the research!

Finally ... the difference between natural, and naturally occurring and organic. It's all organic (of this earth) until man comes in and refines, cracks, processes, and concentrates it ... and puts it in places where it's not supposed to occur naturally! Like rivers, streams, oceans, and your body ...

stay clean ... but don't eat the soap.

[TIMO]

Luck I’m invincible or I would be concerned
I'm sure I do more harm to my self than anything else, I've got seven fingers left to prove that.
Thats why I will always wear flippers so I dont paddle in circles.

[red]

It's all organic

Technically, Polyurethane, being composed of only carbon and hydrogen, is organic

Scrap paper mache - what about honeycomb aluminium?
Light, flexible, shapable (just gave to plate the finished core with Al sheet, anodized in crazy colours...

Oh yeah, the energy to produce such a thing just burnt the equivalent of 100 gallons of PE, 500 kgs of PU and cused the extinction of several minor species of marsupials who lived where the aluminium was mined.

Instead of trying to change the big things in a hurry, how about picking up 10 bits of trash from the beach each day?