How To Build A Spoon

[Man O' War]

Or... do it outside -- at least, the glassing and grinding. As Surfhorn once observed, pine needles in the gloss coat, fresh air, it's all good.

Doc, "New Beginnings" is just a thread in this forum. Bruce's design is the first post.

viewtopic.php?t=1235&start=0

thx

[DrStrange]

Thanks Surfhorn, I used to work for Channin in San Diego in mid 70's. They called me Radar Rub-out. Polisher. Pretty icky but not near what the sanders got covered with. I'll wear a mask and hold my breath!

[flexspoon]

A little something to ponder...

You stand on a surfboard when riding it

You kneel on a kneeboard when riding it

You kneel IN a flexspoon when riding it

A quick glance thru some of the spoon pics will show
this while failing to reveal how enormous this factor is
when actually riding waves - with or without flex. This
is a design feature with huge benefits that should be
considered. If you have not ridden a spoon this may
not be apparent.

It is huge!

What if you could lower your Indy car 2" - 3" lower than
any of your competitors?

[flexspoon]

More from Man O' War:

http://flexspoon.com/pics/mow/mow1.htm

Your velo tail flex photos obviously influenced me profoundly, as you look at these photos. I'm sending six, two at a time. These first two are just a look at the sanding pattern I followed. I stayed true to my principles (right or wrong) and followed both sides of that V up to the knee area, thinner to thicker.

The results are seen in the next four photos. What's different about my spoon--not necessarily better-- is how the torsion bar divides the tail, so that the sides flex independently on one another. How this works out in the water remains to be seen. Scott and Jon may end up removing the torsion bar or thanking God for it. What's your guess?

My tamed down response:
If your board is a Velo replica then
The torsion bar goes - get rid of it. Whole board flex and twist.
If you limit the flex or have too much flex you limit the power.

[DrStrange]

'nother question for those who have used pour foam and/or ridden flex boards. Was noticing in the pic posted by Flexspoon of more all around mdified Velo that the foam rail was carried all the way to the tail corner.

What are flex characteristics of pour foam? Will that stiffen the tail much so need to change the glassing schedule (though foam much weaker than glass so if did that may have to just deal w/ less flex?)? Or when foam is that thin is effect negligable? Seems like putting it in that last bit of rail could be helpful for weaker waves, giving a bit of 3-D shape for the water to work off of...

[flexspoon]

Just found this in the Internet Archives - the original
"Project velo" page from Blast Kneeboards Hawaii.

http://www.flexspoon.com/pics/pvelo/velo.html

"Lots of folks have made Greenough-type spoons over the years, but none of them were as highly developed. George evolved his knowledge of how and why a board and fin should flex over many years. This is not to say that other people's spoons don't work, it's just that they are different...and Greenough's boards have a feeling and performance that are, like George, very unique. "

"It is very important to realize that the Velo concept needs long, semi-hollow to very hollow waves to work. They will not even begin to fire in beach break or the lesser reefs. Think Rincon, Honolua Bay, Lennox Head, Scorpion Bay. Don't think Manhattan Beach Pier, Virginia Beach, or San-Onofre.

The principle behind the board is that the very deep displacement hull under the nose sucks the board over into deep, carving turns, and the large fin drives it forward. Velo DOES NOT respond to simply being pushed towards the beach, even by a powerful wave. It needs a long, looping wall. When it finds that kind of power, watch out. It takes off like a rocket, and is the most natural tube riding vehicle of all time."

This is why I suggest a narrower, "middle" board.
As Man O' War just emailed me:

"I notice that every warning about Velo being made only
for barreling point waves also mentions, for good reason, the deep hull.
Flatten the hull, and you take away some of its effectiveness in those
perfect waves, but you make it more effective in the other 99% of the surf
you ride.

That would be my point.

So then why did I buy a "Project Velo" board that only works in barreling point waves and is 22" wide, which is 1.5" wider than any board I have ever owned????

2 main reasons
1. It may be the last board that Paul Gross ever makes (please prove me wrong Paul) and was made to "Greenough's templates, hull shape and flex pattern".
2. I will be moving somewhere that has huge, barreling point waves where Velo will rip! And so will the edge board.

There are some interesting tidbits and hints for those thinking of building a spoon:

"The new photos of a Velo model under construction clearly show the areas where glass has to be built up and then carefully tapered into the board. Balancing the stiff and flexible areas are the key to making spoons which surf well and are durable in the water."

[AM_Glass]

A few questions about the Paul Gross spoons:
Is Paul Gross adding the "torsion bar?"
It looks like the red board on the site may have a fin box. is that true?
Can anyone sponsor me for $1500 plus shipping? just kidding...

I'm starting to doubt my ability to shape and work out the flex on one of these having never seen one in person and only done ding repair. I'm also worried about making a huge mess and having my parents and neighbors complain. I was thinking that wet sanding would cut down the dust but I'd have to use finer grit to wet sand. Maybe that's a good thing, slower with less mistakes.

Or... I can try to find a board factory that will let me rent space...

[Man O' War]

Glass -- I am in awe of Paul Gross's spoons. Who wouldn't be? When you look at the last series of pics posted by Flexspoon, what is that but perfection. Whether any surf vehicle is worth $1500 is debatable, but if there is one, that's it.

You do realize, right, that the Velo Project you were reading about is from 2001? It's over, and evidently Paul is on a hiatus from spoon-making. So you don't have to scrounge up the $1500, and you're back to making your own. I think the backyard is a good place to do it IF you're not grinding out all that foam. Why don't you do it like I did and spare yourself the misery? You save the blank and you get stronger foam in the rails too.

As far as a "torsion bar" on one of Paul's spoons, I'll take a wild guess and say, Forget it. The one I put on the black spoon is questionable too. Take a wait-and-see attitude; you'll be riding it soon. I watched those "Children of the Sun" Noosa sequences again last night on 18x slow motion, and it looks like on the hard turns the only thing flexing is the inside rail. It's the only thing in the water. Even the fin is out. If there's twist across the entire tail area, it's hard to see. If it's only part way across, the torsion bar (the way I made it, rigid) is probably a plus. Only the riding will tell.

I don't think the Velo in the photos has a fin box. I think it was just shot with the tail off the table.

Wet-sanding is good. Dale recommended it to me for the reasons you mentioned (although I chose not to do it till the final pass with 400). On the other hand, if you've never made a board before, you might be putting the cart before the horse. It would be wise to start checking things out with Manss and Mel.

[surfhorn]

Wet and dry paper (360 grit) is typically used to take the scratches out of a gloss coat. With a spoon, its about sanding through a hot coat but more accuratley, through resin and glass.

That is usually accomplished with regular sand paper - first with 60 grit then 100 and then maybe 120 grit. Once sanded, then the gloss coat is applied. I'm basing this on what is used to sand a hot coat on a normal board- the coat of resin painted on over the laminated fiberglass ...so you don't sand into the 'glass and lose the strength of the 'glass.

On gloss coats I usually start with 260 then go down to 360 grit. After that a good polish for that, oh, so smooth mirror finish.

[flexspoon]

Some pics that show the layers/sanding on my Project Velo board

http://flexspoon.com/pics/layers/layers1.htm

Note: On all the images I post you can click on the thumbnail to see a much larger image.

Torsion bar - of all the Greenough spoons I have seen or ridden I have only seen it on Man O' Wars spoon and on my edge board(where it is just 16" long and mounts the removable fin). Other than that I don't know.
Come to think about it - isn't the entire board a torsion bar?

If I were to make a spoon(which I will soon) I would certainly not purposely try to limit flex or twist in the board with additional structure(s). The "toilet seat" structure of foam and glass is the structural frame and the rest bends and twists limited by the frame and the layers and staggering of the glass.

I do believe from reading postings here and at Swaylocks that most look at flex in a very limited way. It's not just for powering out of a turn. Think of Greenough riding a mat. Where does the flex end? Why is a mat so fast?

It bends, contours and twists to fit the wave while going straight. Then it is bent and twisted by the rider to turn while it automatically contours to the wave.

[DrStrange]

I was "the rub out guy" at Channin in 70-something and I admittedly had glosses to work with that were nearly showroom ready as is. That said, I usually started w/ 400 grit, then 600 grit (both wet of course) then polish. IF I did it all perfectly there were no visible scratches at all under any kind of light. Looked as smooth as quick silver. Couple years later i worked for Dave Johnson in Santa Barbara and did pretty good polishing but never could get finish like at Channin. Now that I think on it, was likely the amazing gloss coats. Seriously, at most a couple dozen minute dust tits on the whole board on a bad one. Often only a few, touch by hand w/ 400 then go to the 600. Easy money.

Sorry to hijack the thread, jsut got carried away down memory lane.

[DrStrange]

2. I will be moving somewhere that has huge, barreling point waves where Velo will rip! And so will the edge board.

Come on Flexspoon, we won't tell...where you moving to?

[MTBarrels]

..<snipped...I'm also worried about making a huge mess and having my parents and neighbors complain. I was thinking that wet sanding would cut down the dust but I'd have to use finer grit to wet sand. Maybe that's a good thing, slower with less mistakes...<snipped>...

What I do when I build a spoon out of a blank (or block) of foam is:

1. Shape the bottom with whatever you like to use (so that the only sanding required is the final finish of the surface of the foam).

2. Glass the bottom with a single layer of 4 oz cloth (sometimes I use white pigment with the resin).

3. Mark off lines (e.g. with a pencil) on the bottom separating areas that are going to be foam and glass versus those that are going to be only glass.

4. Hot coat (or gloss coat) the areas that are going to be only glass (but don't sand).

5. Take a "Stanley knife" and cut (deeply) through the glass along the borders between areas that are to be foam and glass and those of only glass.

6. Tape off the areas that are only going to be glass (leaving them exposed. but covering over the areas to be glass and foam). The tape edge should be just slightly outside (into the foam and glass area) the slit you have cut with the Stanley knife.

7. Spray (or apply carnuba wax and then spray) PVA (parting agent) onto the hotcoated areas. If you don't wax, you can paint on the PVA with a brush; if you wax, you will probably have to spray. In either case, multiple thin coats are the best way to avoid runs, etc. Wax plus a thick coating (multiple applications of PVA) makes removing the PVA easier later).

8. Before the PVA dries completely, pull up the tape (if you wait too long, you will probably pull up PVA that extends away from the tape and into the glass only area along with the tape).

9. Let the PVA completely dry.

10. Lay up as many layers of bottom glass as you plan to use.

After the bottom lamination has cured...

11. Make up a wood "box" structure and attach it to the bottom glass in enough places so as to hold the bottom shape when you start removing foam off the deck.

12. Turn the board and box structure over and rest the pair on the wood box structure.

13. Shape the deck down to match the elevation of the highest points of the rails (or whatever is highest) along the length of the board.

14. Starting where you know that it will be only glass...take a wood chisel (say 1" width) and scoop out foam until getting down to the 4 oz bottom glass (but not through it).

15. Then slowly and carefully work your way out to one of the boundary lines separating the pure glass area from a foam glass area (drawing the same boundaries on the foam deck gives some helpful guidance).

15. Once you have come up to the boundary, there will generally be a ridge of resin that has leaked through the slit you previously made with the Stanley knife (since I tint my bottom glass red, this ridge is pretty easy to see against white foam, or white pigment). Work your way along this line of resin removing foam from the area that will be pure glass and not crossing over into the area that will be foam and glass. (I like to do this in the form of a trench so that the central area that will have glass only still has foam to assist in maintaining the shape of the bottom).

16. Continue this until you have a trench along each of the border lines.

17. Widen the trench sufficiently so that you are able to shape the rails.

18. Shape the rails.

19. Glass the rails with a layer of 4oz glass (this glass should not extend over onto the bottom where there will be pure glass). The glassed rails greatly stiffen up the board.

20. Now start removing the remainder of the foam from the areas that will be pure glass. If these areas are large, check at intervals to see how flexible the bottom is becoming. If getting too flexible, add some more support to the wood foundation structure (e.g. wooden stringers). Continue chipping out foam until all the foam is removed from the areas to be only glass.

21. It is now time to remove the original (bottom) 4 oz glass from the areas where the board will be pure glass. You can do this by using the corner of the chisel (or tip of a knife, or whatever) to pull the 4 oz glass up off the parting agent. If you are lucky, the film of PVA will come along with the glass. If you are less lucky, you may have to get an edge of the film started somewhere (e.g. with a knife) and then carefully peel up the remainder. If you are unlucky and have some pieces remaining, you can always dissolve it off with water (but don't let any of the dissolved PVA/water get on bare foam as it will stain it a weak green. (Wax and a thick coat of PVA substantially facilitate getting the PVA film off from the bottom glass.)

22. The next step is to sand the exposed bottom glass (deck side) so that the deck laminations will bond to it. Note that the glassed rails greatly help in keeping you from damaging your already shaped rails--but don't sand so vigorously adjacent to the rails so as to sand through this protective layer.

23. Once you have done this, you can proceed with your normal deck/rail glassing schedule.

Comments: Note that apart from shaping the bottom and the rails, there is no need for sanding the foam out to form the spooned out area. All of that foam is removed using the chisel and in macro-sized chunks. Hence it is easy to clean up the removed foam.

mtb

[Man O' War]

Flexspoon -- It's pics like that that show what a conscientious worker Paul is. Rings in a redwood have nothing on that fin job. What a pro. "Where have you gone, Joe Dimaggio..."

MTB -- Very smart and well explained. This thread is becoming classic. I hope someone's collating and preserving all this. Surfhorn?

[Man O' War]

Torsion bar - of all the Greenough spoons I have seen or ridden I have only seen it on Man O' Wars spoon and on my edge board

On Man O' War's spoon no more. Today during Scott's first session, the torsion bar came clean off. Flexspoon, your prayers have been answered. The Spoon is free.

The real story out at Swift St. today was "Garth," a mystery man Jon captured in the midst of some nice moves--pix posted in the Gallery.