I've adjusted one of my boards and found that taking off the hard (sanding) edge on the rail from the fins through the tail has made the boards way more positive and easy to control, especially in the foam through floaters and roundhouse cutbacks. The rails are still down, but you can no longer shave with them.
This is contrary to what multiple shapers told me would happen. They thought that the edge would tighten the board over smoother bottom to rail transition.
What's the view of designers here?
Hard edged rails in tail
Moderator: Moderator
hullo red
long time no type
you know when I saw the heading of this thread I thought "at last, someone spoketh sense"
how about a non-answer to the question by talking up the antithesis?
my own experiences: on a tri-fish I had been riding for 12 months I had the resin edge added to just in front of the fins. Result? I could slide all the fins up about half a cent. and still keep positive drive. The board was looser (courtesy of the fin position - probably the leading e dge of the base had the most influence) but wouldn't drift - courtesy of the resin edge.
So was much better.
Keep in mind I have a 14 mill through concave.
Another example: As you might guess Baden is a big influence in the novoclub. Consequently on occaiosn a guy in the novo will take his board in and have the resin edge added. Result is always more positive drivey board. (you can see it in their more positive surfing).
I don't know what their bottom contours are (board)
Mind you, if you leave the fins where they are, then by adding the resin edge, from watching guys surf, it would seem that you will end up with a more down the line board.
Moral: adding a resin edge could mean you have to fine tune your fins again - eg less rake or more forward placement. I guess the opposite could be true.
Leading to:
If the majority of designers are right then:
Maybe if a board goes better with a softer edge, then the fins were not in the most advantageous place to start off with? (Yeah I know, I will not with a preposition end a sentence)
Or perhaps they were possessed (linda blair) by too much rake, or too little tip flex? Or maybe you could have increased the curve in the trailing edge (planshape)?
On the other hand (knee?): Steve Artis, when we were talking (think 1979) about a new board (some kind of double flyer pintail with fluted wings from memory) mentioned that, in rounding off the edge of the tail rail, you could utilise the meniscus pressure of the water flowing around this edge and get better traction.
a few ideas and personal observations, nothing more and nothing (ever) ground in stone
keep well
long time no type
you know when I saw the heading of this thread I thought "at last, someone spoketh sense"
how about a non-answer to the question by talking up the antithesis?
my own experiences: on a tri-fish I had been riding for 12 months I had the resin edge added to just in front of the fins. Result? I could slide all the fins up about half a cent. and still keep positive drive. The board was looser (courtesy of the fin position - probably the leading e dge of the base had the most influence) but wouldn't drift - courtesy of the resin edge.
So was much better.
Keep in mind I have a 14 mill through concave.
Another example: As you might guess Baden is a big influence in the novoclub. Consequently on occaiosn a guy in the novo will take his board in and have the resin edge added. Result is always more positive drivey board. (you can see it in their more positive surfing).
I don't know what their bottom contours are (board)
Mind you, if you leave the fins where they are, then by adding the resin edge, from watching guys surf, it would seem that you will end up with a more down the line board.
Moral: adding a resin edge could mean you have to fine tune your fins again - eg less rake or more forward placement. I guess the opposite could be true.
Leading to:
If the majority of designers are right then:
Maybe if a board goes better with a softer edge, then the fins were not in the most advantageous place to start off with? (Yeah I know, I will not with a preposition end a sentence)
Or perhaps they were possessed (linda blair) by too much rake, or too little tip flex? Or maybe you could have increased the curve in the trailing edge (planshape)?
On the other hand (knee?): Steve Artis, when we were talking (think 1979) about a new board (some kind of double flyer pintail with fluted wings from memory) mentioned that, in rounding off the edge of the tail rail, you could utilise the meniscus pressure of the water flowing around this edge and get better traction.
a few ideas and personal observations, nothing more and nothing (ever) ground in stone
keep well
-
ross
- Legend (Contribution King!)
- Posts: 368
- Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 7:38 am
- Location: centralcoast nsw aust
i'd imagine your rail has become more forgiving.
but is this going to compromise the drive your getting during a turn?i've fiddled with my edges a little and find that they become a little dull if i back them off.
interested to hear how it goes in hollow waves.surely the tail's gunna drop out on a wave like EP(seeing your from blokes island )
i'm thinking in an ideal world where wave faces were always clean and predictable edge would be a most desirable feature.
so having said that i wonder if we would benefit from ditching any edge that average conditions will tolerate.
Then there is the ability factor(and i'm aware that Red is no slouch ),a good surfer will always be able to make use of lower profile/edge in his rail,simply because they read waves better, have faster reactions and make fewer mistakes.but the same rail under a surfer of lesser skill will seem sticky and tend to bog.
i know its boring,but the happy medium between the two works for me.
i think if there were any merit in soft edged tails we'd still be riding 50/50 egg rails.
i might be incorrect here,but Greenoughs spoons were all about edge.As much about edge as they were about flex. i think in the 40 years since we have taken his designs and tried to manipulate them into something that works in waves that aren't NSW north coast points/Rincon.
its nice to have that soft edge up front but i still want to at least pretend i'm GG when a wave starts throwing .
Ross
but is this going to compromise the drive your getting during a turn?i've fiddled with my edges a little and find that they become a little dull if i back them off.
interested to hear how it goes in hollow waves.surely the tail's gunna drop out on a wave like EP(seeing your from blokes island
)i'm thinking in an ideal world where wave faces were always clean and predictable edge would be a most desirable feature.
so having said that i wonder if we would benefit from ditching any edge that average conditions will tolerate.
Then there is the ability factor(and i'm aware that Red is no slouch
),a good surfer will always be able to make use of lower profile/edge in his rail,simply because they read waves better, have faster reactions and make fewer mistakes.but the same rail under a surfer of lesser skill will seem sticky and tend to bog.i know its boring,but the happy medium between the two works for me.
i think if there were any merit in soft edged tails we'd still be riding 50/50 egg rails.
i might be incorrect here,but Greenoughs spoons were all about edge.As much about edge as they were about flex. i think in the 40 years since we have taken his designs and tried to manipulate them into something that works in waves that aren't NSW north coast points/Rincon.
its nice to have that soft edge up front but i still want to at least pretend i'm GG when a wave starts throwing
.Ross
Thanks, some nice responses.
I agree that the edge makes the board drive better off the bottom. With edge I can drive up into the foam and just climb over it.
But I also feel that I'm controlling the tail a lot more when I'm on the foam - the boards feels a whole lot more squirrely (it's a sharp 16.5" pin, so it's not tail width that's doing it - besides it was rock solid before - maybe it was just going slower?)
The hard edged tail is far more likely to give way on reos or extreme roundhouses (you know - when you push the tail when you shouldn't be pushing - like in the bowl of the pocket). I haven't figured if the release on reos is just because I was getting higher above the lip and breaking the fins free or not (linked to the driveier bottom turn.)
I think that the edge makes the board a bit more of a handful in bumpy conditions. Logically this seems to be right. The tail lifts higher out of the water so tends to skip out easier.
I haven't noticed any difference in tube-ability, except it's way easier with edge to do what was called a slideslip in the 70's and track sideways across the face of the wave in the bowl of the tube. (It's a pretty cool feeling, unless your tail drops out). I actually think that the softer tail holds in better (but goes slower).
Andrew,
I take my edge all the way to my knees. The boards respond with great acceleration and carry - especially through the arcing bottom turns around foam sections.
But Ross, I combine the edge with eggy rails - I find down rails simply don't transition fast or smoothly enough and they invert really easily. But, as I always say, I'm just not good o smooth enough (think frog in a blender) to ride down rails - I just end up catching rails all the time.
Steen
How are the frequent flyer points going?
Stopover in the land of rock and roll and power waves some day.
Nearly as good as SA (but without the "benefits")!
Wanderer,
It depends on the shape of the rails, I think. But you can always try it and see, then put the edge back if you don't like it. I thinks it's another of those speed vs control trade offs - one of the reasons GG spent so much time in the air!
I agree that the edge makes the board drive better off the bottom. With edge I can drive up into the foam and just climb over it.
But I also feel that I'm controlling the tail a lot more when I'm on the foam - the boards feels a whole lot more squirrely (it's a sharp 16.5" pin, so it's not tail width that's doing it - besides it was rock solid before - maybe it was just going slower?)
The hard edged tail is far more likely to give way on reos or extreme roundhouses (you know - when you push the tail when you shouldn't be pushing - like in the bowl of the pocket). I haven't figured if the release on reos is just because I was getting higher above the lip and breaking the fins free or not (linked to the driveier bottom turn.)
I think that the edge makes the board a bit more of a handful in bumpy conditions. Logically this seems to be right. The tail lifts higher out of the water so tends to skip out easier.
I haven't noticed any difference in tube-ability, except it's way easier with edge to do what was called a slideslip in the 70's and track sideways across the face of the wave in the bowl of the tube. (It's a pretty cool feeling, unless your tail drops out). I actually think that the softer tail holds in better (but goes slower).
Andrew,
I take my edge all the way to my knees. The boards respond with great acceleration and carry - especially through the arcing bottom turns around foam sections.
But Ross, I combine the edge with eggy rails - I find down rails simply don't transition fast or smoothly enough and they invert really easily. But, as I always say, I'm just not good o smooth enough (think frog in a blender) to ride down rails - I just end up catching rails all the time.
Steen
How are the frequent flyer points going?
Stopover in the land of rock and roll and power waves some day.
Nearly as good as SA (but without the "benefits")!
Wanderer,
It depends on the shape of the rails, I think. But you can always try it and see, then put the edge back if you don't like it. I thinks it's another of those speed vs control trade offs - one of the reasons GG spent so much time in the air!