modern kneeboard designs compared to modern shortboards

MIK911 · Post by **MIK911** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:22 pm

To reiterate the original question, so what other differences are there between standup vs kneeboards, eg rocker, rails, etc?
What happens (hydrodynamic wise) if one stands up on a kneeboard, and how does it differ from a standup board?

Mentioned on another thread, and seen on Sparrow DVD's is Simon standing up at the end of many knee rides. What happens if/when one stands up earlier, like at the beginning of the wave. How do our kneeboards differ (pro/cons) from standup boards?

thanks

barry · Post by **barry** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:23 am

for me,
when I choose to stand up on my kneeboard I have to surf with more pressure on my front foot.
while most standups tend to be more rear foot in their surfing.
this is probably due to the fin placement (farther up)
as well as the placement of the concave differing due to width of board and position of rider while kneeling.
seems like a kb is built to be ridden more from the middle of board cuz thats where most of our weight is centered.
keep in mind that this is just a generalization because when it is called for
a good kneelo can/will adjust his/her weight from front to rear and left to right

hart · Post by **hart** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 4:13 pm

red has a well described post..

very accurate with no degree of partiality of intent

barry has also posted an accurate statement about actually riding a KB while standing up

here is my 2c..(

sorry..it ended up costin' 20 bucks..)

1 Standup surfboards

Were all surfed off the front foot when they were single fins (and generally the front-third of the board due to thickness and widepoint location)

..its just that guys started searching for their back feet when muti fin arrangements (starting with the fish, other kinds of twinnies, bonzers etc..)

They had to because they were confronted with greater fin area that was positioned closer to the tail

As guys pushed more with their back feet (because they liked what they felt with multi-finned boards) some guys started to 'spin them out'

Particularly bigger more powerful surfers and ones who were surfing backside the majority of the time..and I'm sure that Simon Anderson (natural footer) from North Narrabeen (Sydney) needs NO introduction at this point

And the Thruster was born

By the mid 80's ALL standup surfing had reverted to the back foot..fullstop

Older surfers had to adjust..or start surfing mals.

Kids didn't care cause they were cutting their teeth on skateboards anyway and learning to surf on Thrusters

(Note: In the original Thrusters..the cente fin was actually the largest of all 3) and power-gouges from guys like Carrol and Occy became common place

But at the turn of the decade, manouvres such as floaters..and ultimately air (which comes from the same high-line parallel approach that requires air-borne manoeuvres) started to change things..

Standup surfers (the good ones) realised they had to adapt (almost learn) a FRONT and BACK foot approach to riding shortboards

And surfboard SHAPERS?..well they just realised that:-

(a) a surfer's weight can be applied to the deck ANYWHERE and at ANYTIME during a ride and it will alter EVERY single wave that the guy catches

(b) a surfer can break a rail (read tail) out of the water at ANYTIME due to being able to plant a BACKFOOT..and actually now shape square block rail edges in tails for this exact reason

(c) given a + b above, he has therfore no reason for providing a specific release component to his bottom shape nor consider the position of the surfer in any way, shape or form. he more-or-less shapes for the surboard itself, rather than the surfer

And its only because he doesn't have to..he is not dealing with a singularly static mass..he deals with variables that change with every single wave

2 Kneeboard surfboards

Irrespective of fin number, type or conguration, all kneeboards are surfed in a 'front-foot- fashion because there is no other option

Kneeboards have to consider the exact location of the position of the surfer, his height, weight, riding style (ie upright or forward) in such ways that surfboards don't..

And kneeboard shapers have to ALSO consider this in ways that standup shapers don't

On Thread for MIK9ll

Simon stands-up heaps..if its on a kneeboard, he just stays on his front foot (and does those awesome roundhouse cutties and stuff)

Kneeboard rocker? In my view kneeboard bottoms must contour in such a way that it releases thru front 1/3, permits entry in the middle 1/3 and generates release thru the back 1/3

Standup rocker? Most guys seem to advocate single through concaves on virtually everything they make (save doubles for another time

)

My opinion why they do it? because they have no control over the position of the surfer AT ANY GIVEN moment while he is riding..so they must allow water entry AT EVERY GIVEN moment along their rockers..

and rely purely on the capability of the surfer for release

hart

A little bit like riding a skateboard huh?

Imagine doing it on your knees

sorry for the long post..this topic encompases many issues

PS (and its not over yet

)

Two Northern Beaches (standup) shapers over the last month have openly discussed vee principle tail contours and have shaped themselves personal boards.

For those who are intersted their names are Greg Webber and Brett Warner and I am very interested in the outcome

Beeline2.0 · Post by **Beeline2.0** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 4:51 pm

hart · Post by **hart** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 5:23 pm

the singular 'spot' approach mentioned was more for for the purposes of discussion and observation..

..because you are right, a single approach to kneeboarding can be as disastrous

as can be, none

to shape for guys with offsets?

Last one was something like 36" back (from nose) left knee and 44" back right knee (strong forehand bias..and he was a natural footer)

solution here?

(a) broaden central 1/3 area for bottom entry (and yes, rocker was straightened to permit this)

(b) and this guy even allowed me to completely create an asymmetrical outline to suit (fullish on his forehand and tucked on his backhand)..even had a wing (only) on his backside planshape

other guys?

I have at times offset rail fin locations to bring fins up to suit knee positioning (and be offset in themselves)

all about the surfer..and the postion in which he surfs

(or is that kneels

)

hart

Anthony B · Post by **Anthony B** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:53 pm

Hi Bruce,
funny this subject on the offset stance should come up.On occasion i bump into a guy that sometimes surfs nth shelley on one of your boards(dont even know his name cause its only rarely i get to have a yack to him).The offset on his pads blew me away,just nearly half the length of the pad in distance,if you know what i mean.It left me wondering how he could turn on his backhand given that his outside shoulder was no where near square to the wave while he was surfing(on his backhand!).I have a bit of a offset but ive learnt to compensate for it by teaching myself to keep my outside shoulder forward to the inside one.Brought about mainly from analysing kneeboard vids.I seem to generate alot more drive this way instead of have to use my hips so much.The guy im talking of has the rolling stone lips on his board.

surfhorn · Post by **surfhorn** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:22 am

I also agree that one shouldn't limit oneself to one style of surfing. But I think that is something that comes with the amount of time one has surfed during a lifetime.

I feel fortunate to have started surfing in the 'old' days of single fins. Learning to standup surf off my front foot has made it easy to standup surf on my KBs. When I first started standing on my KB it was on a 5'0" (about the 'max' length of KBs at the time)......so there wasn't much of an option: one foot on the tail-one foot on the nose.

And I believe that the time I've spent standup surfing (since 1965 or so) has been a positive influence on my kneeboarding. Learning to use your rails (while standup surfing), both frontside and backside, has given me positive experience on rail control.

And because of that, I kneeboard in a variety of approaches depending on my mood or whatever is floating my boat on any particular day. Sometimes I face the wave and sometimes I switch knee position and ride it backside. Its was just a natural progression.

I highly recommend that KBers spend time on alternative wave riding craft. It only makes one's KBing that much better. And a great way to get through a summer of small surf.

freshfruitflava · Post by **freshfruitflava** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:03 am

I don't think one style of surfing is "limiting" yourself at all...'better to be a master of one trade than a jack of all'...or so the saying goes...
Just as the 'amount of time one has spent surfing' can't really be counted in years. I've been on a kneelo since '84., but for at least the last ten years, i've been in the soup for, at least i reckon, 10 hours a week...Mates who started on KBs way, way earlier, have, i reckon, been lucky to've averaged, overall, 2 hours a week.
So who's more experienced?
who cares?
who's more able? we can see for ourselves (who has the widest grin

)
ride what you want, how you want, whenever you want...but i don't reckon the personal can be prescribed to the majority.

surfhorn · Post by **surfhorn** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:27 am

But, then again, some of us are masters of it all.....

KAVA · Post by **KAVA** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:39 am

someone say masterbaiting?

Bill E. · Post by **Bill E.** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:28 pm

A little bit like riding a skateboard huh?

Imagine doing it on your knees

We did alot of kneeboardin on skateboards back in the early 70's.

The board was like 18" wide and used a carpet pad. Standard plywood and 2x4 riser with the rear wheels lower or smaller.

Got used to usin the legs to get pump and to move the weight from knees to feet. Not that we got air or anything, but usually used them for tight turns on the banks and sides of cement ditches(almost pre pool).

I think in my opinion the KB can excert alot of pressure with the rear of their pressence on a board. Even the extension and footprint support of the top of the swimfin adds more than a standups rear foot alone. The ability to weight and unweight the two focal points of pressure would allow a weight change from their 'knee weight position only'.

Kauaikneelo · Post by **Kauaikneelo** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:21 pm

Used to do fly away kick outs by using my duck feet on the tail to force the board over the top of the wave, until one day the board shot sorta backwards too close to my head.

Then started to punch the board through the close out the same way with flipper pressure, until I was almost doing erollo's with the board over the falls.

Still try to make some use of them, mostly paddling

freshfruitflava · Post by **freshfruitflava** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:08 am

masterbaiting? I did say "...jack of(f)..."
(& as Master of the Universe I can say whatever I please, however I please, whenever I please).