New Beginnings, Starting With Hart

[Man O' War]

Chris (Crox) -- I think your post is a good example of the challenge before the kneelo community right now: to not mix apples and oranges, to stay focused. I don't think you can come to a glass spoon with the same expectations you have for your current equipment, or you're going to be disappointed. There are some thing it isn't going to be able to do, if you stay faithful to the design. One of them is probably floaters.

To use my exhausted analogy, you aren't going to be able to do donuts and quarter miles on a bobsled, and you're not going to do well on a bobsled track with a gokart. The temptation is to try to make a hybrid before you have taken both machines as far as they can go in their own realms.

I think (opinion) that right now the challenge is to make some really good bobsleds, so that when you pull up to check Cornwall or Noosa or Bolsa (Ler), you can say, "I feel like floaters, no hands, and going vertical," or, "It's a day for speed and g's." That's the option that almost none of us have right now. Plea to the shapers...

[crox]

Hi M O’W…….. If you don’t want to move into territory of the more contemporary
kneeboard, in what way do you hope to improve on the existing spoon designs [I’m not saying they can’t be improved]….just keen to know your vision…is it simply to make them more freely available….or is there something more specific in terms of performance that you are after?

Hi Bruce – I wrote -

Quote:
Isn’t there an advantage in having your knees wider apart to get more power into that rail?
& you replied –

”yes, there always has been that advantage..

but it depends on the width the shaper gave you in the first place

..hard to get your knees apart if you're riding 22" or less..”

I was thinking this after looking at MTB’s photos – by the looks of those designs you could increase you span by 4”…….do you think this is a good idea Mow?……or this an example of trying to jump into the orange basket?


Mr Headwax Sir!

You wrote –

“As for absorbing kinetic energy to be released later ...I can't really get my head around this in the real world sense. You're sacrificing energy at one point (a point where you have control over it) and regaining it later (less energy dissipated) at a point where you don't have any positive control over its release - either spatial or temporal. (Think of the rhthym comment in another post)”

In terms of contemporary boards I think they work best with the power permanently on ….non stop drive …so got to agree with you there.

Anyway….very interesting subject!!

[Man O' War]

Hi Crox -- My vision? You stated it: availability, "a spoon in every quiver." Not to be greedy but I guess I thought improvements wouildn't start being made before we've started riding them. Why not give the classic formula a chance? But I'm stoked that this forum even exists and there's interest, so I'm not complaining, just answering your question.

On the knees apart issue, yes, I agree with you, Hart and everyone else that leverage is good. On a spoon, because of the dished out shape, it'll be natural and comfortable to move your knees out. As far as board width, Bruce and MTB may have a more informed take on this, but I would say that for the classic spoon 5' x 21" is about right if you're in the 125 lb. area; 5'3" x 22" around 150 lb range; 5'6" x 24" up to about 200 lbs, and 5'9" or 6'0" x 25" going over 200 up to 250 lbs. (that would be a Hawaiian)

Mr Headwax -- You know those old fashioned slings, where you put a rock in the pouch, swing it fast and let her rip? Or you could just throw the rock, which is faster, still effective at short range and gives better accuracy. I think some of the physics of the sling is at work in a spoon turn: a little more delay, a little less predictability on the trajectory, but a little more power and projection too.

[flexspoon]

More notes:

Paul Gross - He's the man. Aside from GG he knows more about making spoons than anyone one the planet. I would be completely amazed if we hear from him as word is he is gone from this scene. I've been trying to reach him for 6 months.

I want to be amazed so let's keep trying - he has the knowledge and answers.

For anyone contemplating making a spoon:

Greenough had the time. He had the money. He had the place. He was in the right place at the right time. Rincon, the Ranch, Channel Islands, Australia and New Zealand. He did the experimenting. He built board after board as his spoons evolved. The limitations of Velo were overcome with the edge boards.

Then he moved to windsurfing. I can relate, I did the same thing. Why?
For him I'm sure there were 2 main reasons:
1. crowds at the good spots for spoon riding. No fun

2. The new challange of developing revolutionairy windsurfing gear - same path he took in surfing. So he took windsurfing into new areas. Made all his own gear, completely revolutionairy. And just as in surfing those in windsurfing have not yet caught up to where he was in the '80s.

There is actually a third part: On the best day of surfing I ever had I'll bet I actually rode waves at most 1% of the time I was in the water. And that may be optimistic. Windsurfing on the other hand(when you reach a certain level of ability) is 100% riding from when you step off the sand onto your board till you step off your board and back onto the sand. And crowds are not an issue.

This part is for Dale:

Then Greenough took the biggest leap forward of all and focused on mat riding. That is my next step - add a mat from Dale to my toolkit.

Sorry, my point was that Greenough has already(25 years ago) taken spoons to a highly developed and tested state. All the questions that I have ever heard concerning spoons were answered long ago. Why speculate when the answers are known? Start with what is known to work and go from there. The feeling is addicting.

25 year old spoon made by Paul Gross. Ridden constantly. Just returned from Hanalei Bay.

[W.G. Facenda]

George(flexspoon), i remember you! your hair is ALL grey now ,not just that one stripe! You were a Rincon fixture back then. You would remember me if you saw me. We always talked of working on boats. We use to call you the"spoon guy" - in a good way! - Dale's mats are a blast to ride-GET ONE!!

[Man O' War]

To further the stoke, this came from a brother in the mother of us all, England. Anyone want to answer his "sponsons" question?

I am a born again kneeboarder. I was very interested back in the 70's but I was out on a limb as I only knew one kneeboarder and thanks to peer pressure never took the route, but never forgot. Know being in my late 40's it's the best thing since sliced bread.

There are so many different places in the UK to surf. It's very diverse. I am landlocked in Oxford but surf Cornwall, Devon, Wales, south Spain Cost Del Lutz, France, and have just come back from Barbados. The surf was not brilliant but a great place.

In terms of building a spoon I am interested in using epoxy, glass and possibly Kevlar, but this is just thoughts at the moment. I am intrigued by moulding a board top and bottom. You could do without a foam armature and put in a cycle valve and inflate the sponsons and save a large amount of the weight of the board. I don't know if anyone has tried.

I have really enjoyed the ksusa forums on the spoon issue. I think it is long overdue and there is alot of interest and comment.

[DYdamo]

????

[Headwax]

Interesting thoughts in rigidity (Ie read controlled flex) related to stringers in the rails

From swaylocks:

The parabolic power rail , one key area to the performance of a surfboard is flex , flex has become somewhat of a buzzword lately , but flex is useless without flex return ..
So the springback of flex is critical to the timing of your turns and how much speed and twang you get out of turns.
With traditional boards they have a stringer up the middle , the stringer is actually what makes a standard board perform , with out it a board becomes lifeless and floppy like a thong , but the further you push your board onto its rail the less effective the stringer becomes , because the rail line starts to flex off and let go of water somewhat like a soft boogie board , it then starts to lose drive and projection hard into rail turns , then as you come out of the turn your relying on your rail line to spring back but it wont spring back quick enough so the board lacks that twang out of a deep rail turn …
With the parabolic power rail , we’ve put the stringers on the rails so now your rail line stays more rigid and doesn’t flex off thus giving way more drive and projection , but also when you do load hard into a deep turn and it starts to flex , when you unload ,the timber in the rail line will spring back so quickly that its gives your board a noticeable spring and twang out of rail turns ,, timber has one of the fastest rates of flex return or memory in comparison to any known composite so its ideal in a situation where you need spring …this feature is ideal for the tight power surfer

,

See swaylocks: http://www.swaylocks.com/forum/gforum.c ... 229#203913



regardes

[red]

The spoons and flex boards to me have more in common with sleds than modern hull-based designs. I think the image of a board sliding over the top of displaced water is a powerful image of flexible boards' operating principles, whereas modern hulls operate on the lift generated by sinking an aerofoil into the water.

I think that a hybrid of the 2 concepts is more difficult that the mere technical issues involved.

[Headwax]

Hi Red

How goes it?
What's a "sled" refer to?

[Man O' War]

I think this is what Red might be referring to--more "over" than "thru".

[DYdamo]

throw them at me I'll be critical:

Hey Steeno, Guess who lives only 3 1/2 minutes away
Sorry Mate I dont think you,ll be seeing that before me!!!!!!!!

[Steeno]

I get it....I get it......classic Damo...How ya been?

[DYdamo]

very well mate,long time since we've spoken,was it back in the 80's???
is it just me or does GG have abnormally long arms??

[Steeno]

I guess it would be the 80's, damm where getting on, whats next??

And i reckon your right about GG, especially pic 3.......looks like a big swan spreading his wings. Would be good to catch up sometime