A new paradigm for kneeboards

What works & what doesn't and in what type of conditions. Got a "secret" only you and your shaper know???? Post it here... we can keep it quiet ;-)

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Is it more difficult to pull a radical kneeboard turn than a standup one?

Poll ended at Mon Aug 29, 2005 4:54 pm

No
5
25%
Yes
15
75%
 
Total votes: 20

Anthony B
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Post by Anthony B »

Surfing today was a buzz as it always is.

Just a quick example of what i saw today .

Wave one,a local hottie takes off on a sweet dredging left and precedes to smack the lip harder and higher as he goes along on his backhandfor some considerable length. :D

Next wave a 58yr old mal rider takes off,late bottom turn pulls up under the curtain and gets a semi stand up barrel and comes flying out .Text book tube totally controlled. :D

totally different manouvres but the same result,two smiling faces paddling back into the pack of smiling faces that watched it all :D
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a new paradigm for kneeboards

Post by waka »

Well said Jamie.
Just call me 'Poppy'
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hart
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Post by hart »

Brett Warner and I were talking lately..

Brett is a former pro-surfer and undoubtedly one of Australia's hottest shapers right now.

He is also from Narrabeen

Brett said, from the corner of his eye to me that Farrer was one of the best surfers EVER that he has seen at Northy.

Full stop

.

hart

On Topic

When Fanning won Bells (2004?) he was totally on rail

Which is why I figured he won!

and looked like a kneeboard surfer in doing so :arrow:

me
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Jerry
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Post by Jerry »

I've said it before and I'll say it again. [ Because I'm old and tend to repeat myself ] :cry: . Kneeboarders are the centaur's of the surfing world. Not half man and half beast, but half man and half board. Not standing atop, and riding a board, but being one with a board riding a wave. :wink:
None rich, none poor. Everyone happy.
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K-man
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Post by K-man »

Whatina hell is all this stuff about??As don redondo once said after a heavy dose of rosas' hot sauce....Ya surf...ya don't surf.
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doc
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Post by doc »

Wow- very interesting questions raised here and so many different ways to look at it.

And any real answers would run to book-length. Which, eventually, it should, 'cos in my opinion there has been too much attempting to do what the pedestrians do and not what we can do and they can't.

A few points, however, not all of which are central to this:

Let's distinguish between rail turns and what I'll call 'pivoting' or 'torque turns. The pedestrians have it all over us there, as they have more ability to pivot their bodies and redirect around a point, just 'cos of basic mechanics. If, for instance, I can pivot my upper body 30 degrees, they can ( not saying that they do ) pivot 90 degrees and pivot everything from the ankles up.

Likewise compressing and extending on a drop or a turn - they have the same body mass but more vertical distance to use in that compression-extension move. They can exert the force and do more work ( W=F*x) to crank themselves out of a turn.

Trimming, they are way ahead.

Of course, 95%+ of them don't, or their equipment holds them back. The average standup is going with the herd.

Also, we tend to be more technologically aware than they are, and think more about not only the 'athletic' aspects of what we are doing but the physics of it all.

For that matter, the average kneeboarder has tried 'regular surfing' and found it wanting from a performance standpoint. 'Cruising' doesn't appeal, going flat out and driving hard through turns does. Let alone being well out in front of the vertical sections and doing flashy tricks.

One picture comes to mind as a good example. A downhill skiing race (Olympics?) quite a while back and a guy called Franz Klammer. Everybody else was going along in their nice little tuck positions doing cookie cutter moves one just like the last....and then along comes Klammer, flat out and on the ragged edge, barely in control. And he took it, his time was better than theirs.

Similarly, take the paradigm shifts in surfing as a whole. You have the 1970 era standups posing, doing stupid surf tricks on the nose ( the quasimodos, the hanging five or ten) , and that's as good as it got. Non-functional. And then along comes a guy called Greenough, flat out down the line and powering. Guy called Lis, working the vertical, not the flashy, splashy turns, tucked high and tight and it makes a lousy magazine cover on account of you can't necessarily see him from the beach.

they saw what we were doing and attempted to copy it. Very few realised that we're doing something more advanced and while it might not be as flashy, might not impress the contest judges or make a splashy spray-throwing photo for a magazine, it works.

We're dealing with a whole different range of speed and stall speed. We can't slow down and then use body moves to get us back, we have to be flat out in the pocket all the time. One of us does a cutback, it's not way out on the shoulder, it's in close, slam it and stay in where the vertical gives us speed.

Look at a standup's wave versus a wave optimal for kneeboards. If it's not hollow, fast and vertical, we don't really want it.

As Harry puts it so well -
But when you stand up you are just one of the million trillion faceless masses who aren't necessarily surfers but bankers and clerks and builders and fireman who are merely "having a surf."
But we're taking on the beast.

doc...
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Post by red »

Great feedback. Keep it coming.

This post is under board design for a reason. It isn't meant to pick one form as more difficult, but rather to emphasis that the fundamental principles are very different, yet the boards of surfers and kneeboarders are more similar than dissimilar.

Does an attitude of "rail control" vs "rocker control" assist alternate design concepts?

For instance, can we design lift into the rail when it is on edge by bringing more thickness 18" from the front then foiling the thickness flow to the tail (true aerodynamic foil, not just gradual thinning of the board) - to give the board added forward, not upward, lift when on rail (since it's easier for us to bury a rail and to control a bigger nose)?

Will a chined bottom (not those prissy little rail chines, but a 10" flat strip that follows the stringer, with angled panels connecting to eggy rails) promote speed on when the board is on rail yet remain manageable?

Do we straighten the fins out, add more fin camber and put more curve into the tail to build a board that generates more speed (and vertical attack) when surfed on-rail to on-rail yet still responds to being driven from the centre?

The new (standup) twinnies from Webber (Taj's shaper) are designed to be surfed entirely from the centre - there is no need to move the back foot. Are twinnies the answer for kneeboards?

Hawaii next week, San Diego the week after for a bit more 'research'
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Post by surfhorn »

I have always done a bit of standup surfing throughout my career. I like the feeling that the leverage of standup gives one off a bottom turn, snapping a top turn and tucking into a barrel. Or longboard cruising when the waves are knee high. Just plain fun.

When I started surfing a shortboard was 9'2" (marketed to children and women) and only weighed about 35-40 pounds. It was a chore to drag the thing down the cliff and across the sand, let alone try and turn the thing once on a wave. But I also rode mats and body surfed. Then I tried a plywood paipo. And I found I could easily ride waves. That started my quest on the trail of board design, making each board better able to turn on a wave.

Then I was riding my paipo on my knees.....NIRVANA!!!!!!!!!! All of a sudden, surf breaks that hadn't been surfed before opened up to us on a regular basis. Standups couldn't risk the Rock Dance in the pre-leash days so we had surf breaks to ourselves.

So, with uncrowded access to quality waves, we were able to work with board design to create craft that could accurately surf in the barrel (our main goal at the time). It was a great time in our lives......backdooring barrel after barrel and no crowd in the water. Pretty sweet.

While working at Freeline, and John being a KBer also, we were able to design standup boards that always had the ability to be excellent tube riding boards - way before other standup shapers ever had that viewpoint.
Jon Manss was on this same track........all you have to do is witness photos of his brother Dale featured in SURFER magazine of him surfing dredging barrels at the Harbor in Santa Cruz.

But today's KB shapers- such as our Mr. Hart -have kept this flame alive. After taking a few years off, and then delvinginto KSUSA dessign forums, my KB today can ride anything and so I've hung up my standup boards....don't need them anymore.

Its good to be a KBer.
kbing since plywood days
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doc
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Post by doc »

red wrote:Great feedback. Keep it coming.
Well, Red, in point of fact you asked the interesting question - where are we going and where should we be going. Are we pedestrian wanna-bes or off in a different direction that we can go and they can't.

This post is under board design for a reason. It isn't meant to pick one form as more difficult, but rather to emphasis that the fundamental principles are very different, yet the boards of surfers and kneeboarders are more similar than dissimilar.
Which is not necessarily a good thing -
Does an attitude of "rail control" vs "rocker control" assist alternate design concepts?
or, if you will, side-side vs front-back and vice versa.
For instance, can we design lift into the rail when it is on edge by bringing more thickness 18" from the front then foiling the thickness flow to the tail (true aerodynamic foil, not just gradual thinning of the board) - to give the board added forward, not upward, lift when on rail (since it's easier for us to bury a rail and to control a bigger nose)?
Ahmm- not quite sure where this comes in. A 'vertical lift' component that is at 90° to the line of the rocker, let us say, via rail shape is gonna be a mite problematic, 'cos that lifting surface is not completely immersed.
Will a chined bottom (not those prissy little rail chines, but a 10" flat strip that follows the stringer, with angled panels connecting to eggy rails) promote speed on when the board is on rail yet remain manageable?
ah- that's not a bad plan- though I dunno about the eggy rails. perhaps a down, hard rail with a true step between them and the central panel. The thing is, with an angled panel between flat surface and rail, you may have some foces exerted that will not be generating lift at 90° but creating a sideways force, which in turn means drag and so on.
Do we straighten the fins out, add more fin camber and put more curve into the tail to build a board that generates more speed (and vertical attack) when surfed on-rail to on-rail yet still responds to being driven from the centre?
Or, going outside the envelope, go to a flex tail and limited flex( in camber) fin setup so that under pressure the fins go more vertical to the water surface. Lots of possibilities.
The new (standup) twinnies from Webber (Taj's shaper) are designed to be surfed entirely from the centre - there is no need to move the back foot. Are twinnies the answer for kneeboards?
Maybe- or fins integral with the rails, set up to not only hold a line but to channel waterflow across the whole tail in a different direction when turning.

[/quote]Hawaii next week, San Diego the week after for a bit more 'research'[/quote]

Go for it - this is gonna have me sketching and thinking too-

doc...

doc....[/quote]
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Post by willli »

Bury a rail

Long boarders bury more rail than anyone when perched up front and driving a feathering wall, but its the inside rail (what, doesn't count?)

Bury a rail on a cutback

Fish riders(stand-up) do it rotinely (If they're any good). Part of that "front footed" vs "tail stomp" argument thats really about long pretty turns vs contest points

The million faceless...just having a surf

two elderly people from Ohio, walking the ocean beach on vacation:

"Oh look at that one. He kneels. How different."
"Yes it looks such fun, this surfing. I wish I was younger."

Of course I take exception to the million faceless comment,
so many surf mates dead
I don't wonder HOW I ride waves
just grateful that I can
that this wonderful activity has sustained me
I'm not part of some mysto elite
I just enjoy the ocean in a more intimate way
than before
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Post by DrStrange »

Will a chined bottom (not those prissy little rail chines, but a 10" flat strip that follows the stringer, with angled panels connecting to eggy rails) promote speed on when the board is on rail yet remain manageable?
That there is a Greenough edge board. Follows is a hashed explanation based on my limited understanding at this point.

Eggy rails (ideal for a KB according to Dale Solomonson is circle w/ about 1 inch diameter at wide point/thickest point, which yields round rail w/ a bit of roll underneath). The flat plane gives max speed when board fairly flat. The panels/chines (ideally separated by a sharp edged 90 degree to bottom 1/4 inch step) having above mentioned eggy rails will generate lift into the wave face which equals some drag but also lot of holding power for turns. Having the sharp edge and step/strake between the flat center and the chines, makes it so that in trim, the water breaks cleanly away and never really "sees" the chine. It's sort of 2 boards in one--flat bottom hard edges when planning, soft/rolled edges when turning.

If you add spoon/flex you get variable rocker depending on what you/board/wave are doing at the moment.
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Post by red »

Willli

Since I started considering how I ride waves my ability has improved enormously. Like any sport, technique has lot to do with outcome. Technique, timing and wave positioning can all be learnt through thinking how to ride a wave, working out what the board is doing and imagining what may be possible if the mind is released from its fettered thinking.

As a youngster you do the best with the equipment you get. Often your shaper has a lasting influence on how you surf in pushing one aspect of the board over another. Us older blokes have the benefit of understanding our gear and surfing technique better and so can direct the outcome far more. I had quite a long chat with Nov about just this concept recently. He reckons it all came easy when he was young - now he has to think about what he wants to do on the wave and how to do it. His surfing approach is reflected in the boards he is now producing.

Improvement is ALL about HOW.
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