Kneeboarding At 3 G's
Moderator: Moderator
-
Man O' War
- Legend (Contribution King!)
- Posts: 555
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2003 9:57 pm
- Location: Miami FL
-
willli
- Ripper (more than 100 posts)
- Posts: 286
- Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 6:18 am
- Location: long island, NY
I have never seen a spoon, except in picture s or movies. They are the ONE vehicle absolutely identified with kneeboarding. which may explain the mixed feelings they inspire. If you're a kneeboarder you HAVE to love the spoon.
I love foam boards. the shape potential is infinite. structurally they can hold up to years of abuse, and with good shapes there's no waiting around for speed or performance, they deliver right from the drop. the rider is an active participant which is different from the "sit on your heels" and let the board do the driving approach attributed here to spooning. But I've never held one so what do I know. I'm too old to care about a magic bullet... hell as far as I'm concerned I have two from Hart and McCray that saved me from 11 foot mediocrity. What I LOVE about spoons is they're like porn for surfers. the supermodels of the board racks. You see one, you want one. So as kneeboarders how can you NOT covet a spoon?
I love foam boards. the shape potential is infinite. structurally they can hold up to years of abuse, and with good shapes there's no waiting around for speed or performance, they deliver right from the drop. the rider is an active participant which is different from the "sit on your heels" and let the board do the driving approach attributed here to spooning. But I've never held one so what do I know. I'm too old to care about a magic bullet... hell as far as I'm concerned I have two from Hart and McCray that saved me from 11 foot mediocrity. What I LOVE about spoons is they're like porn for surfers. the supermodels of the board racks. You see one, you want one. So as kneeboarders how can you NOT covet a spoon?
-
Man O' War
- Legend (Contribution King!)
- Posts: 555
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2003 9:57 pm
- Location: Miami FL
And it's not just eye candy. This is Derrick Madison ("Run") about his test session yesterday on his new 7 lb quad swallowtail, the first spoon to be built (that I know of) since the excitement started here a couple months ago. He drew from all the different insights that everybody's been sharing on ksusa.
Derrick, I posted this without asking--too stoked to wait--a forgiveable sin, I hope...
you wont believe what i tell you if u saw the board but its * fast (on a raceable hollow wave). Like we all have thought about, Instead of using legs like to pump a shortboard, you time it the exact same but with tugs on the outside rail, and subtle kneeled weight shifts
The front 1/3 is 4-6 layers thick of 4 oz (half s and half carbon) and the whole thing goes down the line feeling like a half inflated mat! (well as much as a 'rigid' board can)
got 2 drive thrus at arnolds then surfed zero racing the end section - just mind blowing speed rollercoasters i actually ripped an air on a kickout that really freaked out some standups! I would be afraid to try and land something like that the flex is so much its insane!
lastly i surfed way to mushy secos til sundown..if i could slither along kinda lamely thru the weakness to the end hollow section it would start flying.
man i am stoked - 8-9 hours in the water yesterday
the board still likes to nose dive and i need to clean up the parent shape and make a female mold to really make a clean one but i am STOKED on the flex/lam schedule just need to see how long it lasts.
take care and thanks for the stoke!
Derrick, I posted this without asking--too stoked to wait--a forgiveable sin, I hope...
you wont believe what i tell you if u saw the board but its * fast (on a raceable hollow wave). Like we all have thought about, Instead of using legs like to pump a shortboard, you time it the exact same but with tugs on the outside rail, and subtle kneeled weight shifts
The front 1/3 is 4-6 layers thick of 4 oz (half s and half carbon) and the whole thing goes down the line feeling like a half inflated mat! (well as much as a 'rigid' board can)
got 2 drive thrus at arnolds then surfed zero racing the end section - just mind blowing speed rollercoasters i actually ripped an air on a kickout that really freaked out some standups! I would be afraid to try and land something like that the flex is so much its insane!
lastly i surfed way to mushy secos til sundown..if i could slither along kinda lamely thru the weakness to the end hollow section it would start flying.
man i am stoked - 8-9 hours in the water yesterday
the board still likes to nose dive and i need to clean up the parent shape and make a female mold to really make a clean one but i am STOKED on the flex/lam schedule just need to see how long it lasts.
take care and thanks for the stoke!
yeah mow let me know he posted the review here.
First off let me say it doesnt really matter to me if anyone chooses to ride similar craft as me or not, my reasons for having a real diverse quiver and surfing in general are personal so if any of you guys are stoked off this stuff right on if u think its a joke thats ok too.
Considering the board is real neutral it really gets up and goes. I am able to make pretty much any section I could make on any other proven craft sometimes some ones that make me go "whoa!"
I increased the lead paddle area by about 5/8" inch all the way around and they flex like an inch in eaither direction (a la liddle style real flexy fin let the rail provide drive), whereas the trailers are failrly conventional and stiff for tail orientated drive (a la fish). Even with the big lead fins I almost did a snap to reverse 360 on the board...the neutral behavior of the board is strange--- the faster you go driving off that hull rail it REALLY holds...but really sitting back on your ankles in a cuttie or snap you can rip the fins loose and sink the neutral tail the problem is you have to time it perfectly on weaker waves in order to recover sometimes you have to prone and give a couple kicks to get going but thats usually worse case on a mushier section turn
the most fun is tugging on the outside rail at the bottom of doing roller coasters the whole board bends insanely (my first one barely flexed at all relatively) you can build enough speed on a semi mush shoulder high wave to do a floater or full roundhouse to floater after the initial drop and one top to bottom for speed...do that on a real good wave and you would be able to air it out if u want to if the section allows.
The best thing is tube riding - you just ride until the end no bailing just hold on the outside rail like dayland said usually it absorbs you like bodysurfing pretty unscathed - even in a shoulder high closeout in a foot of water.
As for speed the waves werent even that good this weekend and I had a lot of fun racing sections most everyone stayed out of my way and lots of compliments/respect was felt.
Now it has its cons of course really slow kinda goofy feeling in mush, one paddle (kick??) takeoffs still have to be timed PERFECTLY or u will nose it or cannonball. Sometimes if you fade a hollow one to lineup a huge bottom turn u can dig the outside rail
the board in appearance is a p.o.s. it actually has some reverse rocker in the last foot from warpage but it probly works as a preload and the board works so who cares. Whats someone gonna say when you come from behind a section and get tubed?
Overall I think the quad setup helps balance out the natural longer drawn out arc roller coaster style of single fin hull style to a little more tail carve/snap if u want, but the whole neutral nature of the board means youre focused more on rail than tail snaps, its just too easy to over power the neutral tail if you hammer it...maybe with enough practice you can find the balance
oh yeah you cant just sit there on your hanuches on it, unless its a REAL good wave where youre fading your big bottom turns (making sure not to nose it) to carves off the top. Little zippers you have to really time your inside arm in or on the face balance with outside rail torque pulls with weight distribution. And so far it feels like it would rather be pre meditated backdoor takeoff to place your self in the tube, or come from behind a section and pull around and up into the hollow spot and inside armstall outside torque hull pull as opposed to quick fin snap stall but maybe thats just my style of surfing it
lastly to me i am stoked because it is an IMPROVEMENT for me over my first board, though still a mostrosity haha. Dropping the weight to 7 lbs there was NO loss of drive it is actually more sensitive and responsive with the other tweaks such as increased flex/carbon return/neutral and increased lead paddle size. But mostly probly decreased float thru less foam - the water thinks its a heavier board but my body knows it lighter and more responsive...
so the point of my rambling is? i dunno! with respect to the masters, make yourself a board...doesnt have to be a flex spoon...whatever works for YOU! But flex is an interesting factor that may contribute to levels of speed and control you havent felt before (on the right wave, relative to how you know another craft would react/feel on the same wave) Be honest with what you feel and have fun and try to surf the best you can. Plus give away waves. as long as you can get toobed, carve hard and have a big ole grin in the end then right on.
end rant until i learn some more on the next one (??)
First off let me say it doesnt really matter to me if anyone chooses to ride similar craft as me or not, my reasons for having a real diverse quiver and surfing in general are personal so if any of you guys are stoked off this stuff right on if u think its a joke thats ok too.
Considering the board is real neutral it really gets up and goes. I am able to make pretty much any section I could make on any other proven craft sometimes some ones that make me go "whoa!"
I increased the lead paddle area by about 5/8" inch all the way around and they flex like an inch in eaither direction (a la liddle style real flexy fin let the rail provide drive), whereas the trailers are failrly conventional and stiff for tail orientated drive (a la fish). Even with the big lead fins I almost did a snap to reverse 360 on the board...the neutral behavior of the board is strange--- the faster you go driving off that hull rail it REALLY holds...but really sitting back on your ankles in a cuttie or snap you can rip the fins loose and sink the neutral tail the problem is you have to time it perfectly on weaker waves in order to recover sometimes you have to prone and give a couple kicks to get going but thats usually worse case on a mushier section turn
the most fun is tugging on the outside rail at the bottom of doing roller coasters the whole board bends insanely (my first one barely flexed at all relatively) you can build enough speed on a semi mush shoulder high wave to do a floater or full roundhouse to floater after the initial drop and one top to bottom for speed...do that on a real good wave and you would be able to air it out if u want to if the section allows.
The best thing is tube riding - you just ride until the end no bailing just hold on the outside rail like dayland said usually it absorbs you like bodysurfing pretty unscathed - even in a shoulder high closeout in a foot of water.
As for speed the waves werent even that good this weekend and I had a lot of fun racing sections most everyone stayed out of my way and lots of compliments/respect was felt.
Now it has its cons of course really slow kinda goofy feeling in mush, one paddle (kick??) takeoffs still have to be timed PERFECTLY or u will nose it or cannonball. Sometimes if you fade a hollow one to lineup a huge bottom turn u can dig the outside rail
the board in appearance is a p.o.s. it actually has some reverse rocker in the last foot from warpage but it probly works as a preload and the board works so who cares. Whats someone gonna say when you come from behind a section and get tubed?
Overall I think the quad setup helps balance out the natural longer drawn out arc roller coaster style of single fin hull style to a little more tail carve/snap if u want, but the whole neutral nature of the board means youre focused more on rail than tail snaps, its just too easy to over power the neutral tail if you hammer it...maybe with enough practice you can find the balance
oh yeah you cant just sit there on your hanuches on it, unless its a REAL good wave where youre fading your big bottom turns (making sure not to nose it) to carves off the top. Little zippers you have to really time your inside arm in or on the face balance with outside rail torque pulls with weight distribution. And so far it feels like it would rather be pre meditated backdoor takeoff to place your self in the tube, or come from behind a section and pull around and up into the hollow spot and inside armstall outside torque hull pull as opposed to quick fin snap stall but maybe thats just my style of surfing it
lastly to me i am stoked because it is an IMPROVEMENT for me over my first board, though still a mostrosity haha. Dropping the weight to 7 lbs there was NO loss of drive it is actually more sensitive and responsive with the other tweaks such as increased flex/carbon return/neutral and increased lead paddle size. But mostly probly decreased float thru less foam - the water thinks its a heavier board but my body knows it lighter and more responsive...
so the point of my rambling is? i dunno! with respect to the masters, make yourself a board...doesnt have to be a flex spoon...whatever works for YOU! But flex is an interesting factor that may contribute to levels of speed and control you havent felt before (on the right wave, relative to how you know another craft would react/feel on the same wave) Be honest with what you feel and have fun and try to surf the best you can. Plus give away waves. as long as you can get toobed, carve hard and have a big ole grin in the end then right on.
end rant until i learn some more on the next one (??)
Surf well.
-
walt davidson
- Local (More than 25 post)
- Posts: 62
- Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 6:26 pm
- Location: San Diego
-
DrStrange
- Legend (Contribution King!)
- Posts: 629
- Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 7:15 pm
- Location: Sebastopol, CA
Yesterday rode Man O' war's Darth Vader spoon so here's another report:
Went to Scott’s Creek north of Santa Cruz. Borrowed it Scott W. who’s face is looking amazingly good! Human even. He’s a fast healer.
So, 4-6 foot faces w/ moderate power. Shifty beach break, short action. Here’s a few impressions:
Great looking in person. Excellent work! Black looks cool but is scary. I felt I looked WAAAAY too much like a seal and all down in the water in my black wettie and everything in the heart of the "red triangle" and all. EEEK!!! Also, not so easy to see as RED or YELLOW or LIME GREEN some eye poke color like that. It was bright sun which helped. Foggy day not so good.
The feeling is sublime!!! So smooth and stable. Catching waves has much smaller window of opportunity which could be widened by a bit more foam left in. Funny feeling. Like paddling isn't even working, going nowhere or backwards and suddenly--I'm in and going very fast. Also, I think, if the rails at the very apex were a bit thicker would ease handling. Felt kind of knifey on what turns I could manage (though that could have been because most of the waves weren't all that much in the way of power). Not a lot thicker but your rail thickness at wide point is about curve of a penny or dime and I think maybe a quarter (25 cent piece). Matches what Dale suggested to me as his general rule for thickest part of rail.
Overall hard to tell about handling as the board was too too too big for me. Did I mention it was too big for me? Felt like I was in the ring @ WWF finals. And loosing. Any little turbulance made it tombstone and was hard to get back to flat because so much area compared to me. Also, I had trouble getting position to move around as it blocked my legs from kicking unless I was way way back. None of that is problem w/ board, just needs to be sized for the body using it. I am only 5’3" on a good day.
Bonus points—super late free fall take offs 2 or 3 times on 5 or 6 foot dumpers; never got it back together at the bottom but thought I’d pearl for sure as the wave was very steep and pitching and lo and behold, when the nose hit the trough the board just formed rocker to fit. Slowed down a bit and then accelerated as rocker flattened as got in front of the face a bit. The board did nearly all the work. My job, should I choose to accept it, is to stay on the deck and under control.
Thank you for the ride and for being a bold pioneer to make one.
Went to Scott’s Creek north of Santa Cruz. Borrowed it Scott W. who’s face is looking amazingly good! Human even. He’s a fast healer.
So, 4-6 foot faces w/ moderate power. Shifty beach break, short action. Here’s a few impressions:
Great looking in person. Excellent work! Black looks cool but is scary. I felt I looked WAAAAY too much like a seal and all down in the water in my black wettie and everything in the heart of the "red triangle" and all. EEEK!!! Also, not so easy to see as RED or YELLOW or LIME GREEN some eye poke color like that. It was bright sun which helped. Foggy day not so good.
The feeling is sublime!!! So smooth and stable. Catching waves has much smaller window of opportunity which could be widened by a bit more foam left in. Funny feeling. Like paddling isn't even working, going nowhere or backwards and suddenly--I'm in and going very fast. Also, I think, if the rails at the very apex were a bit thicker would ease handling. Felt kind of knifey on what turns I could manage (though that could have been because most of the waves weren't all that much in the way of power). Not a lot thicker but your rail thickness at wide point is about curve of a penny or dime and I think maybe a quarter (25 cent piece). Matches what Dale suggested to me as his general rule for thickest part of rail.
Overall hard to tell about handling as the board was too too too big for me. Did I mention it was too big for me? Felt like I was in the ring @ WWF finals. And loosing. Any little turbulance made it tombstone and was hard to get back to flat because so much area compared to me. Also, I had trouble getting position to move around as it blocked my legs from kicking unless I was way way back. None of that is problem w/ board, just needs to be sized for the body using it. I am only 5’3" on a good day.
Bonus points—super late free fall take offs 2 or 3 times on 5 or 6 foot dumpers; never got it back together at the bottom but thought I’d pearl for sure as the wave was very steep and pitching and lo and behold, when the nose hit the trough the board just formed rocker to fit. Slowed down a bit and then accelerated as rocker flattened as got in front of the face a bit. The board did nearly all the work. My job, should I choose to accept it, is to stay on the deck and under control.
Thank you for the ride and for being a bold pioneer to make one.
-
Man O' War
- Legend (Contribution King!)
- Posts: 555
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2003 9:57 pm
- Location: Miami FL
Flexman, our long-distance mentor, once said that having a spoon but not having access to really good waves is like owning a high performance car but never being able to get it out on the highway. If you're doomed to forever drive your Masserati around a residential neighborhood, are you going to be happy? Reality check for those thinking of a spoon.
Last edited by Man O' War on Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Speed Kills
I think its the rider more than the board. Put Jack on a spoon, then a modern board. Will there be any difference of speed? Spoons are a part of are history. Will they be part of the future?
Mike
Mike
-
DrStrange
- Legend (Contribution King!)
- Posts: 629
- Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 7:15 pm
- Location: Sebastopol, CA
There's spoons then there's spoons. Spoon only means the deck has been spooned out i.e. the foam removed to make it flex. Hull bottomed (transitional hull, convex) spoons need juice and the deeper the hull, the more they need. Make less deep hull (Velo had 2 inches) like 1 1/2 or 1 or even 1/2 inch or just a 50/50 rail w/ slight roll under it and it will work in "worser" waves. Make it with a low rail and it will work in worse still. Add a hard edge like MTBarrels does. Or an edge board w/ exaggerated tri-plane and you get even more range. One thing though, whatever the rails/bottom contour, a spoon doesn't paddle worth S#$%^ so you cant' chase peaks in a shifting line-up.
I'm about to start to build one and today I'm thinking "edge board".
I'm about to start to build one and today I'm thinking "edge board".
-
Man O' War
- Legend (Contribution King!)
- Posts: 555
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2003 9:57 pm
- Location: Miami FL
MOW is still working on the cause! This is a spoon mold 5'6" x 24". I used the black spoon (the Vader now belonging to Scott W) as the plug but adjusted the kick downward by an inch.
I'm looking forward to making boards from this and spreading the stoke as time permits. My shameless mission: to addict as I have first been addicted.
I'm looking forward to making boards from this and spreading the stoke as time permits. My shameless mission: to addict as I have first been addicted.
-
Bud
- Legend (Contribution King!)
- Posts: 540
- Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2003 8:13 pm
- Location: Sunset Beach Hawaii
- Contact:
HEY! NICE EDGING!!! 
No........not on the board mold..........the garden.
Is that from Home Depot or what?
Seriously....nice job.
Is there a life expectancy on it and limit to the number of boards you can form from it?
Can you make proportionately smaller boards with the one mold?
Can't imagine everyone will want / need a 5' 6" X 24" wide spoon.
No........not on the board mold..........the garden.
Is that from Home Depot or what?
Seriously....nice job.
Is there a life expectancy on it and limit to the number of boards you can form from it?
Can you make proportionately smaller boards with the one mold?
Can't imagine everyone will want / need a 5' 6" X 24" wide spoon.
-
Man O' War
- Legend (Contribution King!)
- Posts: 555
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2003 9:57 pm
- Location: Miami FL
Bud,
That's right, just pick me up and bring me down. Actually, that garden got beat up and cleaned up a few days earlier. If you look closely at the Queen Palms, you'll see the missing branches. This was the sight down the street the morning after Katrina.
And it was just a Cat 1 here. Those poor folks in the Gulf went through hell. Everyone write out a check to the Red Cross.
To answer your question, I don't think there's any limit to the number of boards you can make. The mold itself is about 25 lbs of solid glass. The deck surface is hard acrylic car paint. You carnauba wax it to a mirror finish, brush on a water soluble release agent and glass right over it. If the paint surface ever did begin to break down or something, you could always go to the release agent of last resort, aluminum foil.
No, that's a one size fits all setup. A board from this mold probably wouldn't be good for someone shorter than it. I'm limited in what I can do, but it's a different story with you, my brother.
That's right, just pick me up and bring me down. Actually, that garden got beat up and cleaned up a few days earlier. If you look closely at the Queen Palms, you'll see the missing branches. This was the sight down the street the morning after Katrina.
And it was just a Cat 1 here. Those poor folks in the Gulf went through hell. Everyone write out a check to the Red Cross.
To answer your question, I don't think there's any limit to the number of boards you can make. The mold itself is about 25 lbs of solid glass. The deck surface is hard acrylic car paint. You carnauba wax it to a mirror finish, brush on a water soluble release agent and glass right over it. If the paint surface ever did begin to break down or something, you could always go to the release agent of last resort, aluminum foil.
No, that's a one size fits all setup. A board from this mold probably wouldn't be good for someone shorter than it. I'm limited in what I can do, but it's a different story with you, my brother.