Hart,
Another flat day in Paradise so got out the tape measure to confirm my memory. The 5'8" pictured has a wide point 22" from the swallow tip with a 20.75" tail and the center line of the front fins from the swallow tip is 15". The nose is 14.50" and the width is 22.75" ( I know I posted 23.75" bad memory). Fins inside to inside are 18.25".
My COG is almost directly over the front fins. Don't know what this means other than the attempt was to move the fins to COG wherever that turned out to be.
Thought about the "drive" question from previous post and drive has never been a problem, so assume that is good. The tail will bend but not break on hard turns and I find myself turning this board harder with less effort.
Measuring Kneeboards.....?????
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hart
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Quadfin,
You're turning harder with less effort, which has to be good.
The fact that you look to position your COG over your fins is also good...It's a natural attraction. You command, the fins respond.
Your dimensions however, to me seem a direct response to the waves that I imagine you surf...They are extraordinarily unique.
I'm glad that your tail will bend and not break..Its always better to go with the flow, rather than not.
If I came to visit, I would bring a 5'10" x 23.25" - 16" nose, - 18.25" tail. Lets me keep my fins @ 17" up and 17" apart...but it is all no-nose..double wing pinny....no, wait...it can't be a pintail. It's got to have a pod..it's got to have area, if it doesn't, it'll have too much outline change between the first wing and the tail..the tail will break, not blend.
So go for the 6-8" swallow and all should be cool..sounds too good, when can I come?
You're turning harder with less effort, which has to be good.
The fact that you look to position your COG over your fins is also good...It's a natural attraction. You command, the fins respond.
Your dimensions however, to me seem a direct response to the waves that I imagine you surf...They are extraordinarily unique.
I'm glad that your tail will bend and not break..Its always better to go with the flow, rather than not.
If I came to visit, I would bring a 5'10" x 23.25" - 16" nose, - 18.25" tail. Lets me keep my fins @ 17" up and 17" apart...but it is all no-nose..double wing pinny....no, wait...it can't be a pintail. It's got to have a pod..it's got to have area, if it doesn't, it'll have too much outline change between the first wing and the tail..the tail will break, not blend.
So go for the 6-8" swallow and all should be cool..sounds too good, when can I come?
Hart,
We are feast or famine this time of year. This rock gets hit an AVERAGE of once a year by a hurricane. Just had two Cat5's miss us by less than 150 miles. Businesses close and tourists flee,giving us a break before winter.
Winter is the time here. Air temp around 85 daytime, water temp high 70's. Problem we have here is lack of surfers. There are reefs and islets everywhere but most of the local surfers don't challenge the big stuff, one of the reasons these Islands are not known....no surfers. We get the international sailors on the race circuit here in the winter, many of them Aussies and Kiwis. Have met many of those guys who carry boards with them. We also have some the best diving in the world this side of the barrier reef.
Puerto Rico is nearby and has no lack of surfers or surf. The British Virgin Islands has a Pro Contest coming this winter(Hi-Ho.com) and is about 100 miles from here. St. Barths and Guadeloupe also have surfing contingents and some pretty nice sights to see of the female type.
Come on down. Rum is cheap and the natives friendly.
We are feast or famine this time of year. This rock gets hit an AVERAGE of once a year by a hurricane. Just had two Cat5's miss us by less than 150 miles. Businesses close and tourists flee,giving us a break before winter.
Winter is the time here. Air temp around 85 daytime, water temp high 70's. Problem we have here is lack of surfers. There are reefs and islets everywhere but most of the local surfers don't challenge the big stuff, one of the reasons these Islands are not known....no surfers. We get the international sailors on the race circuit here in the winter, many of them Aussies and Kiwis. Have met many of those guys who carry boards with them. We also have some the best diving in the world this side of the barrier reef.
Puerto Rico is nearby and has no lack of surfers or surf. The British Virgin Islands has a Pro Contest coming this winter(Hi-Ho.com) and is about 100 miles from here. St. Barths and Guadeloupe also have surfing contingents and some pretty nice sights to see of the female type.
Come on down. Rum is cheap and the natives friendly.
Surf Hard Live Slow
Your dimensions however, to me seem a direct response to the waves that I imagine you surf...They are extraordinarily unique.
This board has surfed US Gulf Coast 1' mush to Mex 10' pound. I think it is happy somewhere from 4'-8'. Surfed the pound well...but a little indecisive on drop....but I don't know if that is me or the board. Hell to get old.
Pic is of St. Barts
This board has surfed US Gulf Coast 1' mush to Mex 10' pound. I think it is happy somewhere from 4'-8'. Surfed the pound well...but a little indecisive on drop....but I don't know if that is me or the board. Hell to get old.
Pic is of St. Barts
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Surf Hard Live Slow
The 5'8" is the only one I am surfing right now. Blanks are ordered and have been looking at ideas for tweaking the basic concept, Lazer Zap or Flying Triangles as a friend calls them. Appreciate the feedbacks.
Thinking about 5'10" and fin boxes for travel and fin changes. The shaper (Jim Englerth) wasn't happy with the way he drew the lines to the swallow and will tweak the tail. Rocker and rails will remain the same and general outline will remain the same.
Board 2 is going to be another experiment. Still thinking. Maybe a Flying Triangle Gun. The Tow In posts here were interesting. I have seen some offshore peaks in these Islands at over 30' during tropical storms with good shape. . Went to HS with Ken Bradshaw and he still does it at the same age...conditioning is everything.
Next Day Edit....Watched some clips of tow ins. Don't know about that. Stand ups have their legs as shock absorbers.
Thinking about 5'10" and fin boxes for travel and fin changes. The shaper (Jim Englerth) wasn't happy with the way he drew the lines to the swallow and will tweak the tail. Rocker and rails will remain the same and general outline will remain the same.
Board 2 is going to be another experiment. Still thinking. Maybe a Flying Triangle Gun. The Tow In posts here were interesting. I have seen some offshore peaks in these Islands at over 30' during tropical storms with good shape. . Went to HS with Ken Bradshaw and he still does it at the same age...conditioning is everything.
Next Day Edit....Watched some clips of tow ins. Don't know about that. Stand ups have their legs as shock absorbers.
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hart
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Bradshaw has to be respected for what he does and how fit do you reckon he is?
Not too sure about a Lazer Zap gun though, unless its got some nose. Most Towies I've seen all have nose in them..strong off the front foot.
When Simon tows-in on his surfing boards, his kneepad helps with shock absorption. But the waves are in the solid 8-10' range (North Narrabeen and Long Reef bombies) not the size to which you refer.
Simon's kneepad is a full on 1" thick, one full piece, but is "moulded" after its stuck on to suit the exact distance between his knee and the top of his foot (he doesn't wear flippers). He sinks into it, same spot, each board, every time. When you add a steamer and booties, its a pretty snug fit.
Not too sure about a Lazer Zap gun though, unless its got some nose. Most Towies I've seen all have nose in them..strong off the front foot.
When Simon tows-in on his surfing boards, his kneepad helps with shock absorption. But the waves are in the solid 8-10' range (North Narrabeen and Long Reef bombies) not the size to which you refer.
Simon's kneepad is a full on 1" thick, one full piece, but is "moulded" after its stuck on to suit the exact distance between his knee and the top of his foot (he doesn't wear flippers). He sinks into it, same spot, each board, every time. When you add a steamer and booties, its a pretty snug fit.
Tow In
I am not even sure the large waves I have seen here are surfable. These are Seamount waves in open ocean...Saba Bank to be exact...and was flying over them in small plane and had the pilot buzz them. No rescue possibility....sharp coral..definitely for experts if even they could ride them.
I concave my decks and and lay a pad in the well myself. I noticed this weekend that I was missing the sweetspot a lot and the smaller custom fit well sounds like the ticket. I started out on a Greenough Spoon (knockoff..not a Velo) and always liked the feeling of the board folding up around you on large waves and gaining speed...almost like reaching planing speed on a boat. I still remember the dramatic wipeouts though when it would reverse flex on landings...
I concave my decks and and lay a pad in the well myself. I noticed this weekend that I was missing the sweetspot a lot and the smaller custom fit well sounds like the ticket. I started out on a Greenough Spoon (knockoff..not a Velo) and always liked the feeling of the board folding up around you on large waves and gaining speed...almost like reaching planing speed on a boat. I still remember the dramatic wipeouts though when it would reverse flex on landings...
Surf Hard Live Slow
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surfhorn
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The glass spoons do have a boat-like nose area. I've always tried to go that way: roll the front rails up and shape in a rounded V bottom.
My dad raced small boats and we always had 4-5 boats at the house at any time. My earliest memories, from the mid to late 1950's, is the smell of fiberglass and grease while hanging around with my dad at his best friend's boat shop in Watsonville, CA.
I've always had a keen interest in hydrodynamics - sketching hydroplanes, etc. when I was a school boy. I just transferred my interest to KBing in the mid 1960's....and I'm glad I did.
My dad raced small boats and we always had 4-5 boats at the house at any time. My earliest memories, from the mid to late 1950's, is the smell of fiberglass and grease while hanging around with my dad at his best friend's boat shop in Watsonville, CA.
I've always had a keen interest in hydrodynamics - sketching hydroplanes, etc. when I was a school boy. I just transferred my interest to KBing in the mid 1960's....and I'm glad I did.
kbing since plywood days
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hart
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Quadfin,
Simon's decks are not concave though..the hardest part of a blank is the crust so all my decks receive one cut (essentially) only, with all thickness dragged out from the bottom. The blanks therefore are glued-up (stringer) to my own deck-line curve to permit one "crusting cut" only.
Surfhorn,
All my bottoms forward of the knee position are Vee'd..so important to keep the rail line high (in relation to the bottom) not only to eliminate catching and stuff, but to provide better rail entry thru the initial instant of the turn..so similar to the Velo, but much subtler because I'm working will a rigid medium rather than something flexible. My father was a Marine Engineer from Glasgow and the knowledge he passed to me about displacement hulls as opposed to planing hulls stays with me each time.
Simon's decks are not concave though..the hardest part of a blank is the crust so all my decks receive one cut (essentially) only, with all thickness dragged out from the bottom. The blanks therefore are glued-up (stringer) to my own deck-line curve to permit one "crusting cut" only.
Surfhorn,
All my bottoms forward of the knee position are Vee'd..so important to keep the rail line high (in relation to the bottom) not only to eliminate catching and stuff, but to provide better rail entry thru the initial instant of the turn..so similar to the Velo, but much subtler because I'm working will a rigid medium rather than something flexible. My father was a Marine Engineer from Glasgow and the knowledge he passed to me about displacement hulls as opposed to planing hulls stays with me each time.
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Jon Manss
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reply to hart
You finally caught my interest on design features. I respect your knowledge of design and balance of your boards and have refrained from comment due to the lack of my own advancements in current designs. My designs and development stopped around 1990. However your last post about V'd bottom above the knee line stance reminded so much of the Wilderness designs of the 80's. We're you influenced by Wayne Linch at all? I believe this was one of his favorites at the time. Now I'll tell you my favorite hull design and you can rip into me. I prefer thrusters , a little gunny in the nose and winged rounded pintails. I like a soft roll off the nose, but the center planing area is concaved and this concave splits in two about halfway down and follows the V in the tail that trails off through the wings. My boards are very flat [1/4 in. tail rocker] and are 5'4" and 20" wide. Brewer in Hawaii taught the shapers that sent me on this path. I've had great success with this bottom design. What do you think? Jon
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stemple
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Jon and Hart,
I will butt in and stick in my two cents about old style vs new. Being a somewhat newbie KBer (4+ years), I am not that knowledgeable but I have been fortunate to have 5 boards built for me in last 3 years of different sizes and shapers (Mel, Romanosky, McCray, and Parkes) At my size 6'2", 220 lbs. That little pea shooter you describe would get my butt hammered at OB in any size. I tried riding smaller boards, my first board was 5'8" @ 22" (quad) it worked ok. It worked best at points in SC and where the take off spot was not very shifty. The waves had to be of good quality or I just could not catch many of them. It could get squirrely on big bottom turns and cavitate when going really fast. Granted my skill level was pretty minimal.
When I moved up in length, 5'11" then 6'2" and width (22.5" and 22.75"). I caught way more waves and found the boards somewhat loose given my skill level. I made faster progress in my kbing and generally had way more fun. I then saw Don riping on wider Parkes boards and decided larger width would be worth exploring. So I pulled out the check book and purchased a 6'0" @23.25" swallow, quad. The extra width and having the fins set farther up the board seemed to make the board looser. It took me alittle time to move my weight forward, drive, and pivot more then twist my turns but in the end board turns as fast as I usually want it too.
Given my current state of mind, size, skill, and local surf conditions (N. Cal beach break), I have generally zoned in around a 6' to 6'2" length, 2.75" thick, good wave boards have widths of 22.75 to 23.25" and low power waves 23" and up. I still don't have a clue about quad vs tri yet. I have a stubb vector coming and I am going to order a Parkes mush tri or ? of very similiar dimensions to compare with for smaller waves. I am interested in the V vs concave bottom design you guys are talking about. Can you touch upon the merits and drawbacks of bottom contours? Having a V up front to bring the rail line higher?
All in all I would say the new designs, at least for me, have made the sport easier and hence much more fun.
P.S. I found that some width in nose is really helpful at getting into waves and prevents pearling. Quadfin's board is interesting but I think I would have abit of trouble riding it.
I will butt in and stick in my two cents about old style vs new. Being a somewhat newbie KBer (4+ years), I am not that knowledgeable but I have been fortunate to have 5 boards built for me in last 3 years of different sizes and shapers (Mel, Romanosky, McCray, and Parkes) At my size 6'2", 220 lbs. That little pea shooter you describe would get my butt hammered at OB in any size. I tried riding smaller boards, my first board was 5'8" @ 22" (quad) it worked ok. It worked best at points in SC and where the take off spot was not very shifty. The waves had to be of good quality or I just could not catch many of them. It could get squirrely on big bottom turns and cavitate when going really fast. Granted my skill level was pretty minimal.
When I moved up in length, 5'11" then 6'2" and width (22.5" and 22.75"). I caught way more waves and found the boards somewhat loose given my skill level. I made faster progress in my kbing and generally had way more fun. I then saw Don riping on wider Parkes boards and decided larger width would be worth exploring. So I pulled out the check book and purchased a 6'0" @23.25" swallow, quad. The extra width and having the fins set farther up the board seemed to make the board looser. It took me alittle time to move my weight forward, drive, and pivot more then twist my turns but in the end board turns as fast as I usually want it too.
Given my current state of mind, size, skill, and local surf conditions (N. Cal beach break), I have generally zoned in around a 6' to 6'2" length, 2.75" thick, good wave boards have widths of 22.75 to 23.25" and low power waves 23" and up. I still don't have a clue about quad vs tri yet. I have a stubb vector coming and I am going to order a Parkes mush tri or ? of very similiar dimensions to compare with for smaller waves. I am interested in the V vs concave bottom design you guys are talking about. Can you touch upon the merits and drawbacks of bottom contours? Having a V up front to bring the rail line higher?
All in all I would say the new designs, at least for me, have made the sport easier and hence much more fun.
P.S. I found that some width in nose is really helpful at getting into waves and prevents pearling. Quadfin's board is interesting but I think I would have abit of trouble riding it.
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hart
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Jon,
What a good post..and remember mate, never hold back! Wayne Lynch was as influencial to me as Nat, but coming from Victoria (another State), I was never that close to his work. I was brought up in the "Wall Street" of Aussie manufacturers in Harbord Road, Brookvale..Very strong Sydney influence..Hot Buttered, McCoy, Barry Bennett, Shane, Woods, Keyo, Aloha. I'm still there after 28 years.
Your bottoms sound unreal..very workable..It's just the overall dimensions that trip me out a little.
If your interested, my bottoms have a 5 stage contour (in cross-section) and 2 stage rocker (long-section). The rocker is easiest to explain..most 90's shapers used a 3 stage rocker..nose lift-planing section-tail lift.
My rockers now are distinctly 2 stage only..the transition from nose-lift to planing section is dissappearing and the entire bottom enters at the knee position. Nose curve- Tail lift. Entry- Release. In- Out.
Jeff Bushman blew me away recently on a trip to Sydney with exactly this concept..and guys like Bruce and Andy Irons are all into it.
The bottoms contour along their length however..not unlike your own.
Like this (nose down to tail) Vee(to 8")..Vee Panel with CENTRAL CONCAVE (to say 24")..Full Concave (say 3mm deep maxm) down to knee position( to suit surfer)..Spiral Vee to just behind weight (looks like a double concave but it is a theoretical Vee) to dead flat (last 5").
Tail lift is around an inch and a bit..but my current personal is 6'0"x24" Double Wing Pintail..more length=more curve.
How's that for co-incidence? Only the subtlest of principle difference.
What a good post..and remember mate, never hold back! Wayne Lynch was as influencial to me as Nat, but coming from Victoria (another State), I was never that close to his work. I was brought up in the "Wall Street" of Aussie manufacturers in Harbord Road, Brookvale..Very strong Sydney influence..Hot Buttered, McCoy, Barry Bennett, Shane, Woods, Keyo, Aloha. I'm still there after 28 years.
Your bottoms sound unreal..very workable..It's just the overall dimensions that trip me out a little.
If your interested, my bottoms have a 5 stage contour (in cross-section) and 2 stage rocker (long-section). The rocker is easiest to explain..most 90's shapers used a 3 stage rocker..nose lift-planing section-tail lift.
My rockers now are distinctly 2 stage only..the transition from nose-lift to planing section is dissappearing and the entire bottom enters at the knee position. Nose curve- Tail lift. Entry- Release. In- Out.
Jeff Bushman blew me away recently on a trip to Sydney with exactly this concept..and guys like Bruce and Andy Irons are all into it.
The bottoms contour along their length however..not unlike your own.
Like this (nose down to tail) Vee(to 8")..Vee Panel with CENTRAL CONCAVE (to say 24")..Full Concave (say 3mm deep maxm) down to knee position( to suit surfer)..Spiral Vee to just behind weight (looks like a double concave but it is a theoretical Vee) to dead flat (last 5").
Tail lift is around an inch and a bit..but my current personal is 6'0"x24" Double Wing Pintail..more length=more curve.
How's that for co-incidence? Only the subtlest of principle difference.
Hey
Hey I'm gonna butt in too. I know the future is the longer kneeboard, but I growed up on a 5'7" and I'll die on a 5'7". Aint nothing wrong with a 5'4". I hear stories about kneelos in the 70's & 80's riding big Pipe on 5'3"s. If its working for you, your stoked. I hope you keep riding it.
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hart
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Stemple,
Just saw your post. Quads Vs Thrusters is a good debate..many of the posts on this site discuss one or the other. No one board is going to suit one guy. Steve Artis was saying recently that David Parkes would be one of the best surfers in the world over 40 years of age. I agree with him.
David's style, waves and shaping skills all suit Quads down to the ground..Same as Baden Smith (Sparrow has landed)..so you can make an observation. David and Baden are very upright, surf with their boards quite flat and are manouvre oriented. They both do bullshit Floaters for example..they surf quite parallel. If this is you or your preference then 4-fins are the go.
The vast majority of guys on the Northern Beaches however only surf Thrusters..(thanks to Simon Ando)..generally guys that surf more perpendicular to the face of a wave and generally guys who use their rails much more often..consider Farrer, when is he not on a rail?
Thrusters need their rails sunk to turn, Quads will let you turn flat..which is why they feel looser in little waves sometimes, but in my opinion one hard grind is worth two half-turns..but that may not get you out of your heat!
Just saw your post. Quads Vs Thrusters is a good debate..many of the posts on this site discuss one or the other. No one board is going to suit one guy. Steve Artis was saying recently that David Parkes would be one of the best surfers in the world over 40 years of age. I agree with him.
David's style, waves and shaping skills all suit Quads down to the ground..Same as Baden Smith (Sparrow has landed)..so you can make an observation. David and Baden are very upright, surf with their boards quite flat and are manouvre oriented. They both do bullshit Floaters for example..they surf quite parallel. If this is you or your preference then 4-fins are the go.
The vast majority of guys on the Northern Beaches however only surf Thrusters..(thanks to Simon Ando)..generally guys that surf more perpendicular to the face of a wave and generally guys who use their rails much more often..consider Farrer, when is he not on a rail?
Thrusters need their rails sunk to turn, Quads will let you turn flat..which is why they feel looser in little waves sometimes, but in my opinion one hard grind is worth two half-turns..but that may not get you out of your heat!