Lis style fish kneeboard

[Rob]

... Most ride a variety of surfcraft from matts to kayaks. There was a kayak in the lineup at Sanddollar and the rest of the guys couldn't have cared less. Very Cool vibe!!!!!

IMO ...

You are a surfer if you surf waves, and use yer hands 'n' feet for propulsion and guidance.

But I gotta draw the line at using paddles.

I've surfed beach and point breaks with a surf skier - there was a mix of long and short boards, a few boogers, and two of us kneelos. The surf ski could catch waves way outside, before they even formed up. There were no bad vibes, and there were waves for all ... but surf skis and kayaks don't belong in the same category as riding yer belly, air matt, bodyboard, paipo, kneeboard, shortboard, funboard, longboard, and paddleboard.

YMMV.

First I gotta say that I don't believe a kayak belongs in a crowded line-up just because of the nature of the beast ( I do kayak occassionally) but "same category"??? What's the difference between using a paddle, or using swim fins, or using webbed gloves? I don't see your point. It's all surfing.

I paddle both kayaks and canoes, usually on a weekly basis. While it's true that surf skis and kayaks can surf waves (so can canoes), IMO those craft, solely because of their propulsion (and steering) devices, aren't what I'd call "free form surfing". It's roughly like comparing a motorized bicycle to a pedal bike.

A paddle is a very large and distinct advantage over even web gloves and swim fins. These are typically much heavier and larger craft, too.

And yes, paddle craft are a danger in any kinda lineup, paticularly if the paddler doesn't know how to surf their craft or understand the rules of surfing etiquette. Your Opinions and Mileage May Vary.

[SCGARY]

"I paddle both kayaks and canoes, usually on a weekly basis. While it's true that surf skis and kayaks can surf waves (so can canoes), IMO those craft, solely because of their propulsion (and steering) devices, aren't what I'd call "free form surfing". It's roughly like comparing a motorized bicycle to a pedal bike."

Not true, surf ski/white water kayaks may use paddling as propulsion to drop into a wave, once on the wave the paddle is but a tool to assist in the directional control (bracing, sculling, etc) used in conjunction with all the other elements required to control a boat in the surf, i.e, hip rolling for edge control, knee pressure, not to mentioned the almighty eskimo roll. Throw in the added dimension of being able to surf backwards (another reason not to be in a crowded line-up) and you got about as "free form" of surfing as there is.
Here in Santa Cruz, the guys kayak/ski surfing pull of some amazing moves. One of which blew my mind a few months back when a Yaker took off on a 8 foot wave , bottomed turned back up the face did a complete backwards Endo, rolled up and proceeded to get barrelled in the following section.
All of which is anything but motorized.

[Rob]

... Not true, surf ski/white water kayaks may use paddling as propulsion to drop into a wave, once on the wave the paddle is but a tool to assist in the directional control (bracing, sculling, etc) used in conjunction with all the other elements required to control a boat in the surf, i.e, hip rolling for edge control, knee pressure, not to mentioned the almighty eskimo roll. Throw in the added dimension of being able to surf backwards (another reason not to be in a crowded line-up) and you got about as "free form" of surfing as there is.

Yer missing my point - there's no way you can compare a surfer with a physical paddle to one without. Period. Two completely different animals, IMO. Lemme stress this - it's my opinion,.

Here in Santa Cruz, the guys kayak/ski surfing pull of some amazing moves. One of which blew my mind a few months back when a Yaker took off on a 8 foot wave , bottomed turned back up the face did a complete backwards Endo, rolled up and proceeded to get barrelled in the following section.
All of which is anything but motorized.

Given a decent water craft, a paddle is a very efficient form of propulsion that a surfer's hands and/or swim fins could never achieve. Fact, not opinion.

Anyway, who really cares? .... Maybe me, for one, if I've gotta contend with an outta control yaker on my wave. Just one notch below a jet skier, IMO. Just my opinions, and I do respect yours.

YMMV.

[MTBarrels]

SCGary wrote:

"What's the difference between using a paddle, or using swim fins, or using webbed gloves? I don't see your point. It's all surfing."

As some one pointed out some time ago (here, I think), technically, it makes a big difference in CA as watercraft propelled by paddles, oars, sails, motors, etc. are considered to be powercraft and must remain clear of surfers and swimmers (I've forgotten the distance, but it's several hundred feet) --even though the law seems to be obeyed mostly in the breach by paddle boarders.

[DrStrange]

MarkyV, just re-reading and noticed that the fish plan Beeline posted and the one you sent me PDF have zero rocker @ tail and the rocker specs Bud posted (pulled from his 5'8" vintage Lis) have Zero rocker @ center of board and 7/8 inch at tail. Quite dif. Which did you go with and how do you like it now and any handling details you can convey would be interesting to know. I would think the zero at the tail might in some ways be faster but also that the two would have very differnt handling characteristics.

(Eggs I used to ride had the graduallly diminishing rocker from nose to zero at tail. Actually they were flat for the last bit of tail, 4-6 inches.)

[surfhorn]

Per California State Navigation Law, any craft that uses a paddle or oar is expressly not allowed in or around an area used by bathers (swimmers) or those riding mats, body boards or surfboards, at any time. Period.

The only place that a kayaker can legally ride a wave would be at a State Parks controlled beach where a special waiver is issued my State Parks. And, if there are swimmers about, that waiver can be immediately suspended on the spot.

With a myriad of rivers, streams, lakes, estuaries, coastlines and now specially designed water parks at their dispossal, kayakers should make use of those venues and stop trying to force themsleves somewhere where they cannot legally ride.

[DrStrange]

Having a political morning here--just a thought: Problems with Yaks, Cannoodles, Boogers, DKers et al really stem from population pressure. Long long ago and far far away, you could easily surf alone anytime almost anywhere and people did. Friend of mine once told me of surfing Rincon in the 50's with Burrhead or someone of that ere (he is that old) and they left because another car with 3 guys in it came and 5 out at prefect Rincon was just too damn crowded. Back then, there was argument, as now, as to what was the best shape to ride and riding styles, but mostly I think respect was given both ways to anyone who ventured off the land in search of adventure and communion.

My point? Support Negative Population Growth however you can. Even being painfully aware of the problem on an ongoing basis will be of some help in the group consciousness (not to get too woo-woo on ya'll). When I lived in Colorado being a snowboarder, over the years there, I could see the wild life and friendliness of the humans disappearing as more and more people moved into the area. Used to surf "secret" spots north of Santa Cruz. Heck, Waddell Creek was practically a secret spot when I lived there. Others likely have different names now. All likely pretty crowded on any given day.

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack this thread with a Waa-waaa-waa rant but I guess its that kind of morning...

Too much followin the "news of the day" this week maybe...

[SCGARY]

Somehow this post morphed from a discussion on the validity of paddle driven surfing as compared to other forms of surfing (Rob and I) to the legality of paddle surfing. ?? Apples and oranges guys.
We all know the animosity felt towards those 'Yakers", which even surpasses the shortboard vs: longboard; jetski vs: paddle surfing(maybe); standup vs; spongers, standup vs: kneerider ( I know a standup crowd in SF that hate kneeriders more than spongers); It goes on and on. Been listening to this crap for 40 years (except the jetski)
Regardless of whose riding what and where, it boils down to the stupidity and lack of judgement/experience of the individual not the type of equipment being used.
P.S- I standup surf 60%, KB 20%, sponge 5%, bodysurf 5%, surfsail 5%, kayak surf 5%.

[Rob]

Somehow this post morphed from a discussion on the validity of paddle driven surfing as compared to other forms of surfing (Rob and I) to the legality of paddle surfing. ??

Actually, this topic WAS solely about the Lis Fish design.

Some of us have effectively, and collectively, hijacked this thread and sent it elsewhere.

Anyhoo, I'm real glad to see that Marky V forged ahead and built himself a fine Fish .... cheers, mate!

[DrStrange]

Yeahyas, back to the topic at hand:

MarkyV, just re-reading and noticed that the fish plan Beeline posted and the one you sent me PDF have zero rocker @ tail and the rocker specs Bud posted (pulled from his 5'8" vintage Lis) have Zero rocker @ center of board and 7/8 inch at tail. Quite dif. Which did you go with and how do you like it now and any handling details you can convey would be interesting to know. I would think the zero at the tail might in some ways be faster but also that the two would have very differnt handling characteristics.

and Rob, where'djaget that little thumbs up dude icon?

[Rob]

... and Rob, where'djaget that little thumbs up dude icon?

I hijacked it from one of my own forums - save it to an online server and use it yerself!

Anyhoo, with regards to Marky V's fishie, he posted earlier in this thread that he went with Bud's rocker dimensions and not the flatter Lis rocker. Which makes perfect sense since Marky's fish is 5'8" and the Lis is 5'5". I've been contemplating what rocker to shape in on my Lis Fish - it's a 5'5" with keel fins, that calls for about 3-1/4" nose rocker to zero tail rocker - and I think I'm gonna do 4" nose and 1/2" tail rockers, faired in smoothly. When the surf is up a bit, here on the East USA coast, the sand bar beach breaks usually jack up quickly to vertical and a tad more rocker in the nose is nice for the typical late takeoff.

[DrStrange]

Rob,

A bit more nose rocker for steeper drops will make it a little easier at the bottom of the wave though a little less easy getting in at the top on take-off. BUT difference between the zero point of rocker up near your knees vs at the tail (see French Curve template) is huge. More tail rocker or I should say, putting rocker at the tail instead of running it out to flat will dramatically change the handling characteristics. Have ridden many stand ups w/ total flat rocker at tail. Much much faster and a lot more squirt out of turns once you learn to work it. But it also moves trim further back and just makes all sorts of difference in the feel. I have had a love/hate relationship with that type of rocker. Even a very small bit of rocker at the tail will make steep drops easier and initiation of turns and cutbacks easier but will reduce speed and squirt/acceleration. All I really want to say about rocker can be summed up by Hopefully Bud and/or Hart will weigh in here with some expert comments. Take all I've said about it with a grain of salt. I've never shaped and am not very good rider so my story is a bit suspect but also has a lot of truth to it. Have I backed and filled enough yet? Sullied/protected my reputation?

[Rob]

Dr S,

Thanx for your good comments.

After too many decades of messing with board designs - in the short and long run, it's all an "experiment of one" - let the games begin ....

[DrStrange]

Good luck! I actually did shape one in about 1966. Took so long to get the rocker even close to smooth curve the board ended up about as thin as paper, almost a spoon without the edges

[DrStrange]

Bud wrote re: rocker:

Starting from the nose:

4" @ tip......1" @ 12"......1/4" @ 24".........0" @ 34" (center)

Starting from the tail:
7/8".......@ the end........3/8" @ 12"........1/8" @ 24"

The rocker gradually curves from nose getting progressively straighter to tail without any dead flat spots.

The Lis "blueprint" linked earlier gives rocker as zero @ tail gradually increasing as move toward nose w/ max at nose.

Are these different ways of decribing/measuring identical rocker or are they distributed differently?

I'm trying to mentally reference this to boards I used to ride that I would describe as the Lis blueprint descrition i.e. like a French Curve with the straightest part at the tail (acutally went to totally flat for last 4-6 inches)