20 interesting statemente re quad v tri

[Bryan Jackson]

I want to make it clear that the discussion regarding Rail Design was not written by me. It was written by Bruce “Snake“ Gabrielson. a long time veteran surfer from the 60s, and should probably be read in the context of his entire web site which discusses board design, shaping, and glassing.

I also think that it is important to separate rail profile from rail thickness.

For example, a fat soft rail is obviously going to perform differently than a thin soft rail. Likewise, a fat hard rail is going to perform differently that a thin hard rail.

Regarding wings, I’ve read/been told by various shapers that they serve to: a) make the board faster, b) make the board looser, or c) help the board hold tighter in steep hollow waves. Take your pick !

Actually, I could see how any or all three theories are correct and at work in different conditions. However, one thing is certain. They are harder to glass and/or repair !

[red]

Re water flow over rails in a turn

It took a pleasant hour scrolling through the pics to meet up with these examples of water flow over the rail:
album_showpage.php?full=&pic_id=1693
album_showpage.php?pic_id=1652
album_showpage.php?pic_id=1536

They give some idea of the impact that rail foil may have on speed and control

It was a fun trip past Slats' photos, Duanes Cape Town stuff (and that small shark!), the Jalama gathering, a Sydney contest, darcy, vintage kneelo shots.....

[willli]

I think the "snake" had longboards in mind when he wrote his piece on rail design. It certainly looks like info that translates well into boards shaped in the sixties. You certainly can't take it as gospel, especially considering modern boards use different rail shape in the nose, midsection, and tail depending on what the shaper and more importantly the rider want.
That hard edge rails skip on hard turns in hollow surf probably means the rocker is off for that particular wave shape. Easing the rail will smooth things out but may exact a price on a different wave shape. Bud used to describe 3 different rockers for his fish hybrids, continuous curve being the one for pipe. I think its near impossible to isolate any one component of board design as the most important variable since everything works together, or should.
Then there is rider preference and rider ability. Take a learning kneelo that sits on his heels and rides with an erect back, sticking his hands in the water to steer. How could he ever appreciate the capability of a Flashie or Blast?
But we're all advanced surfers, expert at what we do, and there are differences of approach to waves and preferences in equipment. We have choices made for us in Australia and Hawaii and California. Imagine if you had to get all this stuff straight in your own garage cos nobody shaped kneeboards. Phew, that thought gives me a headache!

[K-man]

Bryan,

My post to you was from astatement made by headwax,probably confusing.sorry

headwax

Quote'' with a squarer back rail,with the edge taken off''

square back rail refers to the thickness of the board in the tail area A squared off tail edge taken off is understood.Get me back on track here wouldja

Red,

I agree with you about fat rails being a hassle in foam-sections,and yet there are things I love about fat [dorje=unfoiled ]flat boards
in certain surf conditions-more compromises Some of the pics were helpful in seeing water flow over the rail.I'm not done with this fatty thing.will quiz hart later today,time to rattle his cage-just abit
,

[john -]

quote

The bachelor of arts way is to go all zen and answer direct questions with spacey questions (or meaningless aphorisms) in return - but that avoids the fundlemental answers (as well as avoiding the original question)


just how do you get that nice white little quote box?

[willli]

HW, I think we all appreciate your pioneering research into deep concaves. But imagine not having to do it one board order at a time and you see the decisive advantage shapers have in sponsoring pros. they can make 5 boards with incremental changes in one parameter, give them all to their test riders and gather feedback. then take the two highest scoring boards and surf them themselves.
You may be like me in that when I watch surf video's I spend more time watching the boards than the riders. It would be nice to finally get a video that ignored the stupid interviews and closely panned the board shape being ridden, under lighting that illuminated the boards uniqueness, then run the wave sequences. Interview the board, not the man! Have the shaper voice over what he hoped to achieve with the board. If the rider has to speak make him talk about why he chose that board for that wave.
Egos are large in the surf business and surfshop board sales n design "experts" the used car salesmen of the lot. Take a moment to pity the standup who orders "custom" and gets a board whose only true variable is length, putting aside color and glassing, even from a local shaper. People tend to stick to what they know and trust. You must be very firm with those you work with to get those concaves against their "better" judgement.
A momentary toast to WAXWORKS, the "skunkworks" of board design. Lockheed turned aviation on its head. That breakthrough is 1mil but 30 boards away. I don't have your patience.

[willli]

On "squared" rails. I rode a Stewart "hydrohull" longboard for about 2 years and it had the "Squared" or "Chine" or "Bevel" portion at an angle, the feeling being that boards are not riden flat and wave faces are curved. As part of the forward rails this feature significantly cut drag while maintaining bite. this board was faster than similar outline down egg rail boards I rode. Squaring the rails of tails on shortboards 90deg to the bottom prob owes to the expectation they spend most of their time buried and the volume at that point is low and two edges result with a clean release point between them. I could be wrong but its part of "paying back" that Hart refers to. That and you can't discount the influence bodyboards are having on board design where these rail features are common.

[hart]

Ths standup shapers I have been speaking to make comment about release off the top when referring to squared rails.

Additionally, they comment about the desire not to have any water trapped on the deck line (again off the top) because this may have the effect of directing the rail on a line that they surfer may not choose to travell.

It makes so much sense when you analyse modern (standup) surfing and see how most manoeuvres off the top contain the mandatory break/slide associated with the 'plant' of the back foot..and that the subsequent recovery (read making the manoeuvre..and getting back down the face) will not want any aspect of the board to determin the surfer's path.

So in my opinion, it appears that the squared rail line provides

1. release at the top

and

2. neutrality in the recovery position

Neither of these things appeal to me in a kneeboarding sense..and in the most basic of observations my reasons are

1. we don't have a back foot to 'plant'

and

2. we don't have the instantaneous weight distribution from a back foot - front foot style recovery from what is almost and 'unbalanced' skateboard type manoeuvre.

Not to overly use Farrer as a model here..but Farrer will drive off the top by entering his 'outside' rail before he gets there..and driving under the lip or smashing thru it..all the time using the push from his rails and deck-line to do so.

And his rails, just like mine and some of yours..are the antithesis of square.

hart.

[john -]

headwax

good research

definition of dorje lacks academic rigour however

see my post on first page of this thread in answer to Harts pronounciation of dorje question

even that is just a surface explanation

however - the symbol will look good on a custom made one day

quote box still not comming up - local computer gliche - like when words rather than smilie appears - even when not disabled

next thing is to put your well found dorje onto my profile - does one go thru avatar in profile?

whats all this got to with rails??? communication and rigour!!!

if someone posts a well foiled board next to an unfoilled board my foil/rail education would take a step further


cheers

dorje


no surf maybe monday in celebration of the queens birthday

and headwax
ps - sometime later - after watching Legally Blond (sunday night movie):shock: Arts degrees are gooooood - on par with a world surfing tour or the old overland trail thru the middle east and asia to Kathmandu- pity the educational trend has gone all vocational - how else would the "professor" as an endearment and "et al" grace these fine pages?

[surfhorn]

Bring back the 1970's! I agree that there should be more BA's and less MBA's.

Way back then I was a music major and found myself spending more and more time on my big butt in a jazz club than on my knees on a fat wave. Finally, fter playing a new years eve gig in San Francisco, I put my horn in its case, walked out the door and moved to the Eastern Sierra for about 4 months to ski and think things over. Really makes you reallize how important KBing is to oneself when you're landlocked.

Well, I moved back & patchworked together a series of courses in biopgeography and graduated with a degree from the Liberal Studies School at SF State entitled "Planetary Stewardship: Management of National Parks & Natural Areas.

They didn't have an advanced degree in KB Design, though.

[john -]

surfhorn

they have a surf industry degree down our way which is good for surf people - though i do contradict myself re vocational study - always do a BA arts/humanities first i think - then vocational - arts/humanities - a window to inquiring about the world

never too late - i started at 28 - did 5 years - lotsa surfing as a uni student!!!!! BA then BT (teaching) - later some post grad in teaching asian studies - also never too "dumb" i failed one year in primary school and one year in high school - never completed the system - for some reason i got smart in my late twenties

why??? travel - to develop a world view and read about places you go and surfing - to understand a weather map - a surfers geographical/meteorological knowledge is surprisingly transferable

only hangover - cant spell - teach 5/6 year olds - they cant tell


great surf on new but small 2/3 ft swell this morn - amazing bank at 13th gave ooomph to small waves - better than some 3/4 surfs ive had of late

working on understanding rail v fin turns

carpe diem

dorje