Kneeboarding At 3 G's

[Man O' War]

I'm going to drop a bomb--a rubber bomb, nobody gets hurt. I just hope it's controversial. I also trust in the mercy and understanding of the members of this forum. Forgive me if I go too far, and may I be forgiven if I don't go far enough.

On this website, should we be talking only about the number of fins, the kind of deck pads, etc., or about the Whole Vehicle? I just saw Simon's movie, and while there were many outrageous waves and impressive riding, and I'm happy for the guys riding and for Simon who finally finished that labor of love, there's something missing. This is pretty much what I see in every DVD my sons bring home, only surfers are doing the same stuff better. I thought there was something unique about kneeriding that even standups would envy. There used to be.

I'm going to get into a little hot water here. Just so no one misunderstands me, I'm not talking about eliminating anything. I'm talking about balance. Why is it that flexible spoon testing and development is not even 10% of the conversation and focus of this forum? It should be 50%. That's a challenge, and I invite you to show me I'm wrong.

Imagine if ksusa had the money to say to an outstanding waterman and kneerider with a genius for engineering and hydrodynamics, "We'll pay your salary for five years. You be our full-time research and development guy. Take our conventional boards to the next level, whatever that is--let your mind run--and test your designs out around the world--CA, Indo, Australia, in point surf, reef, beach, big, little, glassy, gnarly--and report back to us. And don't forget to document it all on film." Besides wanting to be that guy, what do you personally think would happen?

My point is, it already has. Greenough was the guy, Velo was the result. That concept was touted as "the board of the future." I might eat some crow (I like it medium rare), and I might unintentionally offend somebody, but what is the kneeriding community waiting for? Why aren't we in the future yet, 40 years later?

Someone might say, Greenough moved on. He did, to carbon fiber and edge boards, motivated partly by restlessness--because nothing is perfect, and the longer you ride it, the more you start looking beyond it, which can be a mistake--and motivated also by the desire to get away from the crowds, which meant B grade surf, which meant new board and bottom designs. So the Velo era stopped partly because of George's fast-moving mind and partly because of his non-competitive personality. Fortunately for most of us, we grew up surfing in crowded conditions and didn't own boat that would take us to the Ranch or the Channel Islands, so the crowd thing isn't such an issue with us. Also, most of didn't have the luxury of surfing 7 days a week, and as far as intelligence, forget it. Maybe you're burdened with genius, but I'm not, and the restlessness comes much, much slower, thank God. It's just interesting that later on, looking back over his boards, Greenough said that none of them worked better than Velo, and that he'd probably still be on it today if it wasn't for the crowds. It was the inspiration behind the title, "Innermost Limits of Pure Fun." Velo was actually two or three boards all made the same, and he rode it/them for about five years, is my understanding. He did finally move permanently to the mat, which in his hands is hovercraft, not a mat. But that's another story and another sport. (Dale makes the best in the world and knows George well and can correct me on my facts above.)

So where is the velo concept today? How could kneeriding just let it die and today ignore it or be satisfied to view it from a distance? Quickly, these are the reasons I hear.

(1) "They only work in really good waves, like powerful point surf." Even if that were true, why wouldn't you want one? But I rode my first one all over the place and had fun: high tide Stockton, low tide Lane, Jalama, good Rincon, bad Oceanside, etc etc etc. Good thing no one told me I wasn't having fun. This isn't about either/or but both/and. Why is there no spoon in your quiver for those good days? Today we have a reverse Short Board Revolution in kbing: they've gotten longer and longer. Spoons can get longer too. Something longer, wider, and with less hull makes it possible to ride a wider range of imperfect surf.

(2) "It's too expensive." The last price on a new spoon we can remember is the series from Paul Gross for $1500 apiece. Even if that price could never come down, most guys have three boards in their quiver, which is about $1800 already. Then let's factor in all the previous members of the quiver. So it's not a money problem. On top of that, the materials for a spoon don't come to more than $300 even for a rookie like me. When wholesale prices come into the picture, make that $200? So how can the pros not figure out a way to make a first-class spoon for under a $1000? As long as guys like Gross are making spoons in isolation, sure, the price will stay high. The kneelo community has to want them. When there is demand, there will be supply.

(3) "They break." Maybe, but foam boards break faster. The only real structural issue with a spoon is the rails, "point load compression," i.e., cracks where the main pressure happens. With a few laminations of carbon graphite along the vulnerable parts of the rail, that problem is probably history.

(4) This is the lamest one: "They don't float." They do float, but granted, it's harder to paddle them. That's why God made UDT's. And yes, you're in the water up to your neck, just like back when you used to body surf, remember? But "They don't float" also means, They don't need a leash, They don't wander away after a wipeout, and They don't keep you on the surface when you're caught inside. A spoon will go as deep as you can go and stay down as long as want, which means, you never have to worry about getting cleaned up again, unless you're at Maverick's.

There's a reason the velo concept started the Short Board Revolution: its transparent beauty, its liveliness, and its explosive nature. It will turn heads again. This is without even taking into account carbon graphite and any newer, lighter, tougher materials that may come along, which might make incredible hyperlaunch airs, floaters, tail slides and everything else possible along with the flex. That's a hybrid I'd like to see. But how will we get there if we don't go through velo?

I may live to regret this thread. If I have misspoken, I'd appreciate only a light beating from you gentlemen. But I did want to throw this out there, it was worth it. At least one guy has successfully demonstrated that it's not a pipe dream.

Is it "Back to the Future." What do you all think? Is anybody out there? Does anybody care?

[Beeline2.0]

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[TIMO]

Hi Man O” War

1/ I’ve always had respect for someone who has a passion about the same thing (kneeboarding) that I do. (Even if I don’t see it there way). Its what makes the world go round, so step up and have your say! (even Byran )

2/ I think kneeboarding is about to lift off its last 5-10 flat spell (so to speak).
Just my observation of my local area.

3/ I’ve seen an asymmetrical modern board of late, and allsorts of board designs thanks to this great website, so it is evolving.

4/ Maybe after this site reaches 1000 (not to long away!) we can all put $50 in to help someone do this (like a grant)

5/ I’ve never surfed a spoon , but would like to give it a go.

6/ A bomb shell would be : should this site be called KSWORLD given the make up of its members

[waka]

I think kneeboarding biggest problem,
is lack of Youth.
Check the average age of a kneeboarding, its not overflowing with youngsters.
As man of war said about his son bring home dvd's of young footboarders doing it better, of course they could ,
because they are YOUNG.
Even the SIMPSONS (CHEYNE AND TROY)
there 25+ years.
not exactly gromments eh?
Matty Nov leads our next wave of youth, but there is not a lot of kids following thru.
body boardering, video games, blame what you will,
but it is had to turn things around.
As i said before about Kneeboarding ( or whatever form of surfing ) is about FUN.
I am proud to say that i have introduce all three of my sons to surfing, with only Curtis still surfing!.Its up to us fathers and Elders to introduce the sport to our kids
waka

[waka]

Hello Headwax,
could you please explain how it is a big advantage ,
with a lack of youth?
KING WAKA

[Man O' War]

HEADWAX -- Point well taken, but I talked to somebody from your area, and you actually ride s*&^ waves only 50% of the time. So if you had access to good, affordable spoons, which you don't, which is The Whole Problem, you could at least see for yourself the other 50% of the time.

WAKA -- On the lack of youth, the presence of spoons out there would go a long way toward pulling youth in. It did 40 years ago. It even pulled in the surfing industry. Right now, standup kids don't understand why (in their eyes) someone's kneeling on a surfboard instead of standing. At least, that's my 17-yr old's take on it. But the moment I got the spoon, he started listening and watching. I even thought I saw a moment of self-doubt in those stand-up eyes.

TIMO -- At least you're willing to give a try.

BEELINE -- I wasn't saying, get rid of your foam board, which you love and understand. I was saying, right now you don't even have the option to check out a good spoon personally so that you can understand it and possibly love it too.

Regarding your friend who refuses to ride anything but spoons, it would be a good thing to listen to his reasons. What would create such a commitment? Or is it just stubborness, or worse, masochism. I'd also like to know what kind of spoon he's riding. The size and planing area obviously has a lot to do with its success. Some people's only experience has been on a 4 ft x 20" thing that barely planed, an exercise in futility, unless you're the size of a jockey.

Lastly, I said "tailslide,", not "dead" or "dying." What I meant was, you can be in the middle of dramatic movement but mostly sideways, not forward. Like I said, I wanted to throw it out there, because it has value. It was not an attack, just a challenge.

[willli]

wasn't the plan you expressed to leave your spoon in Cali?
Why? east coast waves inadequate?
there's an upwelling of interest in kneeriding cos of another fella - Lis
I've already convinced two fish phanatics to TRY kneeling
Velo = flippers BIG flippers from what I read
there's already a split on this board on that subject
so why make our equipment our ID? isn't kneeling enough
everyone loves Velo. every surfer I know over 40 knows exactly what it is. when I introduced kneeriding to my local there was collective disappointment that the board didn't LOOK like velo. but that didn't stop me from kneeling on my Blast.
I surf for fun. crowds are a fact of life. point breaks are few, and packed with surfers when its pumping. even so my experience of the waves is different than those standing. a bit deeper than the skateboard ramp trick mentality, and more soulful than the loggers. maybe having a Velo would inspire deeper thought.... what once a year when you luck into a spot firing with nobody out?

[W.G. Facenda]

I know two kids about 18 that have made their own spoons and fish.They surf standup,kneeride, bodysurf, and mat. I gave one of them two unreal boards because they were so stoked.This next generation is very open to many ways of surfing------it's going to be fun to see what evolves from all this ...........

[Beeline2.0]

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[Man O' War]

Willli,
Hey, good to hear from the same coast.

The reason I'm taking the board to CA is because I have a brother out there who rips, who's going to love it and who has no other way of getting one. Then I'm hoping to make two more just like it.

One is for a fellow kb'er right here in FL. As an exceptional ksusa supporter and totally dedicated rider, who guards and knows what he's talking about, he figures that even with job and family commitments, he'll have 10-15 days a year of pure spoon. You're on Long Island, which SMOKES, judging by the pictures this year. Think how many more days you'd get.

The second board, I hope, is for me. I'd like to have one too. I'm keeping my Flashpoint and my other board. I'll use them whenever I can.

All the notes I took while building the spoon from start to finish, step by step, including materials list and costs, I'll email to you or anyone who wants them. I just want to spread the stoke, and as we all know, that's its own reward.

[Ler]

What does a spoon look like? Is it that dish out looking thing from the past?

Ler

[fooj]

ManO'War,
After revisiting the past (the future,come early?), it's the hybrid, the second, third, etc... generation that will be significant. Advancement, forward progression. You're onto something man. Always looking for a fusion of speed and maneuverability, us half people are. Great!

Ler, here's a picture:album_showpage.php?pic_id=3798

[Man O' War]

Ler: No, it's that dished out thing coming at you from the FUTURE.

jfooj: I love you, man.

Here's my email for anybody that wants the notes. They'll be ready in a couple of weeks. mrpalwessling@bellsouth.net

[DrStrange]

I'm enjoying this thread. Rode GG style spoon awhile back in the day. But just for clarity there can be:

"spoon" as in dished out deck/flex board (regardless of bottom) or

"spoon" as in displacement hull (as opposed to planning hull)? or

"spoon" a combination of one and two?

Several possibilities and variations as you can see. I rode footy boards for years that were displacement hulls but solid/no flex (except the fin). Loved em. Lot of variation in how deep and hull and how much flatness in the middle etc. Also tri-plane varients etc. Currently digging on the quickness and instant speed of planning hulled fish varients. Go figure. Would love to have a fully dished out flexy displacement hull. But the cost for sure and making my own is out of the question at this point in time.