environmental concerns and board making

[john -]

what is the impact on the environment from surfboards - chemicals and the likes...waste products and so forth?

in terms of construction are spoons more ore less enviromentally friendly than foam/glass boards

are the expoxy (soft?) boards potentially less chemically harzardous in construction

in many ways surfers seem well tuned to the enviroment...but are our boards?

[DarcyM]

Surfboards pretty much suck as enviromentally conscious vehicles. Somewhere I read all the nastiness that this industry promotes, releases or creates, but I can't give you any hard and fast numbers off the top of my head.

[I kind of laugh, in a sad way, when I think of "soul surfers", & some old videos of hippy surfers and this mystical earth friendly back to nature mantra that some folks cling to, and yet very few of them are riding koa wood or pure balsa boards. ... And even koa wood is endangered now. ]

Consider the board alone. How many boards over a surfer's lifetime? How many are recycled? Sometimes handed down, sometimes broken and disposed of in the trash. Sometimes moldering away underneath someone's house for years and years. Sometimes lost at sea.

The typical board: resin -- petroleum based, styrene monomer. Fiberglass -- manufactured cloth (not too many natives weaving your 4 oz on a hand loom from virgin wool). Solvents for clean-up: acetone -- highly flammable, volatile solvent. MEKP, Catalyst = reactive oxidizer, also very hazardous. More resin is used for spoons than foam boards, meaning more catalyst, more solvents. Foam - another petroleum product (I think -- extruded foam ... ahh ... can't think, something nasty probably, maybe isocyanates). Accessories -- leashes, pads, even wax. Very little of which are biodegradable. Wetsuits, flippers, fins -- rubber, neoprene, more resin or plastics -- same same.

Even most of our clothing (board shorts, t-shirts, sandals) are manufactured in third world countries by indigent laborers making pennies a day, some working in seriously life-threatening conditions.

Then there's the gas for our automobiles ... surf checks up and down the coast ... cell phones, computers ...

It's enough to make you want hide under a blanket.

But seriously, we're a very privileged, elite group, in a lot of ways. These resources are precious, particularly when the end product is hand crafted by a master craftsman. Yet have no illusions, it is not a very environmentally friendly business. So make reparations where you can (donate time, money), and frequently.

[albert]

Now, there is no way I was gonna read this one and not say anything..

Firstly I will say this:
If we wanna keep surfing the same vehicles, as opposed to those environmentally friendly surfboards and surfing accessories that have yet to be invented (and are probably not going to be invented in our lifetimes), then I hope not too many people are doing too many studies as to the ecological/human health effects surfboard materials have. The way I see it, fiberglass has basically the same crystaline configuration as asbestos (the only difference being that fiberglass is slightly stronger), therefore it is only a matter of time before someone puts a ban on this material. Thankfully, this will not happen for some time, as there is a lot of money flowing in and out of the fiberglass industry (i.e. boats), so there is no fear of this happening any time soon. But for those of you with experience sanding surfboards, I would recommend you get a chest x-ray taken and have someone take a look at it (more so if you are or have been a smoker for any extended period of time).

Secondly, the effects we have on the ocean are negligible when we speak in a relative sense (consider a comparison to sports such as formula 1, hard court sports such as basketball and raquetball, and pool sports). These have a much more significant adverse effect on the environment, and should therefore be considered prior to looking at the effect of things like wax dissolving in the ocean and the introduction of the ever popular wintertime wetsuit warmer...

Thirdly, and most importantly we should look at the meaning of the word 'natural' as a whole. There are several very important psychological studies on the meaning of the word and the effect it has on us. The mere definition of 'natural' as the populous knows it is ' the processes that occurr in an ecosystem that has no interaction with humanity'. This causes a shitload of arguing in environmental circles; consider the following example. We create dune restabilisation programs to prevent sand movement, using plants with strong roots to prevent erosion; as well as the installation of jetties and piers, all with the main purpose of sand stabilisation. However, if we look at the processes that occurred a few thousand years ago, we would see that the so called 'natural' processes consisted in the mass movement of sand as part of normal coastline processes. It is a proven fact that the movement of sand stirrs us sediment, which provides food for bacteria, and aquatic life in general.

Finally, and I do apologize as I just realized the length of my post, the fact that we are not looking at the things that are killing us (and I do believe that humans are a part of nature). What about where we are building our houses, what is upstream of our groundwater and what has the ability to percolate up porous soil and get into the air we breathe. As well as the impacts our landfills have (and Im not talking about the landfills we are filling at the moment, but the landfills that were closed 20 and 30 years ago), on the water and soil surrounding the communities we live in.

In conclusion, and I hope none of my prior teachers/bosses are looking at this, I think the problem here is not how we are getting to do what we do. But, to look at what is really having a large impact on the environment, which is more likely than not what our parents and grandparents have done in the past. Believe me, I look at environmental data all the time and we are in a much better world now than 100, 20 or even 5 years ago.

Damm. I know Im gonna get hammered for this post. But oh well. To me this is the classic arguments I always get suckered into, (environmentalist vs. environmental scientist/engineer (me)). and dont get me started on drinking water contaminants and endocrine disruptors...

[TIMO]

Great post Albert
We do you start and where do you stop,mmmmmmmmmmmm.
I’ve had several different people, (mostly doctors) tell me that the difference between an asbestos fibres and fibreglass fibres is that the glass fibre is straight and the asbestos is curly. The glass fibre will pass through the lung lining but the asbestos will get stuck there like a screw and causes the trouble with accumulation in the lung lining. I’m not sure if that is right as I’ve always treated all dust particles as bad (boat builder 20yrs) but I haven’t seen any of my mates die in that way. What I have seen is the long term use of acetone that has soaked through people’s skin in their day to day work and the end result being fatal liver damage and also cancer from the styrene that the resins are made up of. Come to think of it I’ve worked with guys that can’t be within 100 metres of anyone using epoxy resins as they just breakout in mad skin rashes and start shaking. I often have arguments with old fishermen that talk down to you when you are fishing and say that back in the old days we used to catch 20 blue fin tuna a day,” maybe your doing it wrong son “ . Of course I try to explain to them that they are the ones that did it wrong and ask them what exactly did you do with 20 blue fin a day anyway. Yes it is our generation that has to fix up their mess and if they don’t believe it, well its not to hard to find them a reality check is it.

[surfhorn]

Sorry that I don't have much time to respond right now but I've been looking at the enviro impact of surfboards since the early 1970's and I have seen things get better.

Here's one thing: the new resin that's being used for boards is much better in one aspect. In the past, a 55 gallon drum of resin produced approximately 40 boards - I'm talking about the resin that required each batch to be catalyzed after its pumped out of the drum. This led to wasted resin if the glasser pumped out too much resin for the board(s). Also, by exposing the catalyst to the air, there were nasty fumes released.

Today's resin comes good to go - no catalyzing, at least for the glassing part. With one 55 gallon of today's resin a manufacturere can produce approzimately 80 boards. And you can save the resin thats not used for use on the next board(s). I haven't been in the factory much in recent years so I don't have all the facts/details so excuse me if I'm off a bit.

The enviro track I've always taken is that I realize what my kneeboard is made of and where its come from. I've always treated my boards with respect and have taken care of them so they last for years. I'm thoughtful about my other effects on the environment and act in a sensitive manner including my transportation and purchasing patterns.

As the saying goes, "Take only photos - leave only footprints". But in our case I can add ....'and leave a wicked gouge at the end of the ride'.

[DarcyM]

Just to clarify Albert and Timo on the hazard of fiberglass (fibreglass ) vs asbestos.

What makes asbestos fibers different is the size of the fiber. Asbestos (a natural mineral fiber) is a crystalline material that breaks into a microscopic particulate fiber size when pulverized (cut, ground, sanded, etc) that is more hazardous for two reasons. One being that it is of a particular length to width aspect ratio (5:1 or greater at 5 microns, longer than it is thick) that it bypasses all of the protective respiratory systems (nose hairs, mucous, cilia) to penetrate deep into the lung. Smokers out there: smoking damages these protective systems, allowing nasty stuff to penetrate even deeper (smoker's cough, that's your lung's protective systems trying to start up again and clear out all the gunk that's been sticking inside of you ... grab a cig to settle it down ).

Second, that same aspect ratio allows the fiber to lodge into the lung aveoli. Thats where oxygen is transferred into the blood. It's unique physical properties also make it a trigger for a unique form of lung disease (asbestosis) and cancer (mesothelioma). Glass fibers have not been shown to have the same properties.

Still, all you sanders and shapers out there with high exposures, wear a good quality dust respirator (HEPA). Glass fibers are a nuisance particulate and can cause irritation to the linings of the lung.

[albert]

I’ve had several different people, (mostly doctors) tell me that the difference between an asbestos fibres and fibreglass fibres is that the glass fibre is straight and the asbestos is curly.

The thing with that is that since asbestos fibers are more brittle than fiberglass, that means they break more and in the edges of the breaks are tiny edges that have broken also, giving the broken asbestos fiber a grippy characteristic when it reaches the lung tissue.

The glass fibre will pass through the lung lining but the asbestos will get stuck there like a screw and causes the trouble with accumulation in the lung lining.

However, you could say that fiberglass fibers pass through lung tissue, but not all fibers, much like asbestos only a fraction of the fibers you inhale stay in your lungs. In my opinion, fiberglass as a cause of lung cancer will show itself in the population in small groups, but as we increase our lifespans through medicine, we will begin to see these effects in greater numbers.

[hart]

Still, all you sanders and shapers out there with high exposures, wear a good quality dust respirator (HEPA).

Hi Darc..

In these modern times, when most boards are fitted with 'fin-systems' or (prefoiled) glass-on fins..there is little or no, exposure to fibreglass fragments.

When sanding a board, you are cutting the fillercoat (US hotcoat) and that is entirely resin, not glass. (assuming we are NOT building spoons)

Sanders used to have to foil fibreglass fin panel and this is where the glass fibres come.

No-one in Sydney now uses fibreglass fin panel fins.

In shaping, naturally (and please forgive the contradiction of terms) there is no exposure to fibreglass..cause you are cutting foam

but..

Polyurethane foam is made of TDSI (?)

Toluene-dioscionate (sp)

And this in fact, gives off scionide (as a gas) when it is cut or fabricated

(yum)

I shape wearing a respirator with fume (and dust) filters..but so many of my younger brothers still shape with paper masks (lighter and cheaper)..

but I haven't always done so it was always paper masks in the 70's if anything..

and besides, that bloody dutchman who founded New York is still lurking over my shoulder

..its alright, its in a soft packet..

breathe easy

hart

ps

who does Peter Stuyvesant think he is anyway ?

.. besides, I always thought New Amsterdam sounded better

[albert]

Hey Bruce...

it would really help if you could give us the actual spelling of TDSI.

I cant seem to find any research on it through my regular sources.

Thanks

[hart]

Hi Albert..

you know, you make a point

we should all check our info AND spelling before we post..that way we have the best chance of being understood

As I understand it, foam blanks are made by a mixture of two (premixed) ingredients

Prepol and TDSI

TDSI is made up of Toluene (CH3C6H5 -a petrochemical) also referred to as Methylbenzene

and

Diisocyanate (and the TDSI bit might be Australian slang)

these are essentially mixed together and they begin to expand immediately. the mixture is poured into a prewarmed concrete (or fibreglass) mould and a blank is soon born.

and that's the limit of my knowledge..other than the fact I work with this lovely concoction, every day of my life



bruce

and the gas it produces as its cut is in fact, cyanide

[DarcyM]

Thanks Bruce -

You got the spelling right (the second time). Here in the states we call it TDI (Toluene-Di-Isocyanate).

TDI and it's relatives (MDI and other isocyanates) are nasty actors, can cause a variety of health conditions but one of the worst is sensitization. Timo hit it on the head ...

Come to think of it I’ve worked with guys that can’t be within 100 metres of anyone using epoxy resins as they just breakout in mad skin rashes and start shaking.

You may work with a chemical for years and then one day ... wham! just like in the cartoons. Even tiny amounts of exposure cause extreme symptoms. It sucks if you've based your career on working with the stuff ... can you say "job retraining"?

Bruce - you'll breathe easier with that monkey off your back, but you don't need me to tell you that. Good on ya for taking the high road on your respiratory protection though. And the rest of us as well -- don't want anything that might shorten your productivity!

[hart]

Hi Darc..

You know, of all my years doing this it was epoxy resins that were the most hazardous to work with.

Epoxy resins are the strongest (hardest) of all but can only be worked with polystyrene foam (and I don't know of any shaper that likes to work with polystyrene)..

But working with Epoxy compared with Polyester resin was evil.

Rashes, irritations, heat sensitivity..all that good stuff.

Especially for the Laminators and Sanders.

At least the traditional method of surfboard construction seems to agree with me [Urethane foam with Polyester resins]..(except I now have no fingerprints left and can't pick up a hot cup of coffee without a t-shirt in my hand!)

bruce

ps

you'll have great news in 24 hours

[stu]

Is it time for the paper mache' board ?

[red]

Polyurethane foam is largely inert. You start with lots of molecules of urethane and encourage them to join together into long, cross linked chains. I think the TDI you refer to is used to catalyse the polymerisation process or generate carbon dioxide so the foam "blows". Usually catalysts are used sparingly.

Most polymers are pretty inert. The dangerous phase is in use of the monomers, before polymerisation (when the blank is blown). There may be small amounts of unreacted monomer captured in the material. Often the monomer is volatile and often it it harmful. Off the top of my head (it's 20 years since I did this stuff) I think urethane is not one of these.