Opinions sought on small wave boards?
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hart
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Do you have an Opinion About Small Wave Boards?..well, yes
Hey mate..
Had to give some thoughts..although I would rely on K-man's last coment about leaving this ultimately, to your shaper
(you're not looking for a tri-fin Crozier Slab are you..cause they were last done in 1985..when Chris actually died
(read single fins with drifters out at the rail..PC/TF)
Not necessarily..by placing your widepoint behind 1/2 way on some shortboards, you can actually increase your outline curve..which can be good for a shorty in the second 1/3 (providing you have some straight lines elsewhere..see below)
Keep the area there (and your outline a little straighter in the back 1/3)..AND don't touch your fins (assuming you ride a thruster, that is
)
Your height..your choice. You could go 5' 7" if you want. Or you could seek length like Red and other Phillip Island guys are chasing. But they get waves..more than us.
IMPORTANT.. look for dynamic bottom shape for water transfer, rather than just rely on length for planing. A board that pushes water when its big..will only push more water, when its small
See above comment..and DON't put them in front of your fins (unless you surf 18" from your nose.. do you want to push water in your planshape as well?
Yes, do the best possible. Neither low..nor boxy. Your shaper will know the difference
And even in little waves, we want to get vert!..well, don't we?
Don't go there
hart
ps
and failing all else..go around to Damo's for a surf
Did you see ABC Australian Story about Koby Abberton and Maroubra on Monday night? Awesome interview
Had to give some thoughts..although I would rely on K-man's last coment about leaving this ultimately, to your shaper
Thruster..easyHeadwax. wrote:
[*]First the easy one: quad or tri?
(you're not looking for a tri-fin Crozier Slab are you..cause they were last done in 1985..when Chris actually died
(read single fins with drifters out at the rail..PC/TF)
[*]Widepoint[/b
But it also reduces the tail planshape curve.
Not necessarily..by placing your widepoint behind 1/2 way on some shortboards, you can actually increase your outline curve..which can be good for a shorty in the second 1/3 (providing you have some straight lines elsewhere..see below)
[*]Tail design[/b
What do people think of a rounded pin, as opposed to a fat fish?
Keep the area there (and your outline a little straighter in the back 1/3)..AND don't touch your fins (assuming you ride a thruster, that is
)
[*]Length[/b
But what length will be too short? (remembering I want to keep a lot of planing area).
Your height..your choice. You could go 5' 7" if you want. Or you could seek length like Red and other Phillip Island guys are chasing. But they get waves..more than us.
IMPORTANT.. look for dynamic bottom shape for water transfer, rather than just rely on length for planing. A board that pushes water when its big..will only push more water, when its small
It will for a guy your size. Stay around 23-23 1/2" but keep something straight around your shins..you surf off your tail?..don't go curve in the last 1/3 or you will have no bite
[*]Width: going slightly wider than 23 @ 1/2", will give more planshape curve again, keep a litle more planing area happening, but is (say) 24" to wide? Is that extra width going to make it harder to fit in small spots?
[*]Wings[/b
Should the wing be in front of the fins? Or should wings be avoided altogether as they straighten the planshape out in front of the rider?
See above comment..and DON't put them in front of your fins (unless you surf 18" from your nose.. do you want to push water in your planshape as well?
[*]Rails[/b
Any thoughts on the best rail design for small waves?
Yes, do the best possible. Neither low..nor boxy. Your shaper will know the difference
Thickness in the centre but nothing out at the rail. Think of a dolphin
[*]Thickness:
do people think it is better to have a thicker board for boyancy and early planing, or a thinner board that has less volume and is easier to throw around?
I disagree with other punters about flatness. Flat counts on where you put it providing you use curve elsewhere. Don't just rely on a straight rocker for speed. Cause it will make you catch your deckline (front 1/3) if you try to get vertical
[*]Flat area in the rocker: Does this help?
And even in little waves, we want to get vert!..well, don't we?
Yes..it is the 21st Century after all
[*]Tail lift as opposed to nose lift?
[*]Abrupt rail shape transitions: Is it possible to emulate a wing by changing the rail shape thickness and shape at a particular part of the
board - without actually having a wing in the planshape of the board itself?
Don't go there
Every professional is applying resin edges to their boards nowadays and they go as far forward as their rails allow (so look at your rail shape and you can tell)
What difference do you think a resin edge makes and how does it work?
Use the contour that makes water travel where you want it to. Draw a picture of flow on your board now and then design a series of inverts (low points) to make that happen. You will be surprised what shape it generates
Bottom contours[/b]: to Vee or not to Vee? Flat, or concave, or double concave? Veed' nose to keep the rocker minimal?
You're welcome
Thanking anyone who answers very much for their time.
hart
ps
and failing all else..go around to Damo's for a surf
Did you see ABC Australian Story about Koby Abberton and Maroubra on Monday night? Awesome interview
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Steeno
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Willi is on the right wave, excuse the pun
Just had to add, I think we are talking about different wave types to board design, as i think is metioned some where above.
Small mushy waves are to me. wind generated, coming straight to the beach, crumbling/spilling from the top, no curl whatsoever, gutless, no sideways down the line push. Imagine this at 2ft
Small punchy waves are to me. storm generated, rebound waves, reef, lotsa curl, power to get you moving, down the line push, wedgey peaks. imagine this at 2ft.
would you ride the same board in these different 2ft waves?
I think Andrews question is about boards for small mushy waves, Not small punchy waves, I also know what Craig Splashy is saying about his board, as I also had Dave Parkes make me one for the world titles in 02. The reasoning for this is small waves with no power at all, when a wave is flat its flat. A board that will create the least drag will be the fastest and go the furthest. When its a 2ft flat wave, there is no going vertical, because the wave is flat, no bottom to drive off, containment of your speed is the key, anything that will slow you down is not on. Flowing on a small flat wave isn't easy, and your board design is critical. Flat bottom board does not mean no nose lift or tail lift. It just means the majority of your planning area is flat, being concaved, vee or whatever as long as its flat. You want to be moving faster than the wave, burying a rail in mushy no push flat waves will actually slow you down, not generate speed. Generally in small mushy waves, you are floating over crumbles to create gravity speed not wave generated speed turns. Edges are important also, but being too sharp to me creates an opportunity to slow you down if you catch one, soft it off a little or have a flat edge, so there is still enough bite, so when you float over one of the crumbles you can throw the tail, and come out of it sliding and redirect to keep your speed without catching any rail, and keeping your momentum.
If a 100Kg surfer could outsurf a 70kg surfer in 2ft flat gutless surf, you would think there is a reason.
Hope that makes some sense, my mush flat wave board is 5'8 x 23 3/4 and paddles like a demon, also have a flat mush board from 2 to 5 ft flat gutless waves
hey bruce That Koby interview was a good watch, big heart man that chap
Just had to add, I think we are talking about different wave types to board design, as i think is metioned some where above.
Small mushy waves are to me. wind generated, coming straight to the beach, crumbling/spilling from the top, no curl whatsoever, gutless, no sideways down the line push. Imagine this at 2ft
Small punchy waves are to me. storm generated, rebound waves, reef, lotsa curl, power to get you moving, down the line push, wedgey peaks. imagine this at 2ft.
would you ride the same board in these different 2ft waves?
I think Andrews question is about boards for small mushy waves, Not small punchy waves, I also know what Craig Splashy is saying about his board, as I also had Dave Parkes make me one for the world titles in 02. The reasoning for this is small waves with no power at all, when a wave is flat its flat. A board that will create the least drag will be the fastest and go the furthest. When its a 2ft flat wave, there is no going vertical, because the wave is flat, no bottom to drive off, containment of your speed is the key, anything that will slow you down is not on. Flowing on a small flat wave isn't easy, and your board design is critical. Flat bottom board does not mean no nose lift or tail lift. It just means the majority of your planning area is flat, being concaved, vee or whatever as long as its flat. You want to be moving faster than the wave, burying a rail in mushy no push flat waves will actually slow you down, not generate speed. Generally in small mushy waves, you are floating over crumbles to create gravity speed not wave generated speed turns. Edges are important also, but being too sharp to me creates an opportunity to slow you down if you catch one, soft it off a little or have a flat edge, so there is still enough bite, so when you float over one of the crumbles you can throw the tail, and come out of it sliding and redirect to keep your speed without catching any rail, and keeping your momentum.
If a 100Kg surfer could outsurf a 70kg surfer in 2ft flat gutless surf, you would think there is a reason.
Hope that makes some sense, my mush flat wave board is 5'8 x 23 3/4 and paddles like a demon, also have a flat mush board from 2 to 5 ft flat gutless waves
hey bruce That Koby interview was a good watch, big heart man that chap
Thought I would make my contribution as I grew up surfing in Texas, making me well qualified for tiny mush manipulation.
First, whatever Hart says!
I used to ride a Greenough Spoon (60's) in 1' mush and had some amazingly good results as long as the board was kept in perpetual motion. I found the fin shape and area had as much to do with the performance of the board as the shape. Maybe an oversimplification but they were simpler times and I was considerably lighter and more agile.
I find that I have to change my attack on the wave in transition to small waves, regardless of board size or shape. I haved to make an effort to keep a higher line to generate transition speed and keep from bogging. Again, more and quicker high turns.
The other day I was observing a pack of hungry surfers on a nice 3' semi-closeout Wilma swell here on the Florida Gulf Coast. I was tracking who made the waves and what equipment they were on. The Longboarders-on average- made more waves. They were making waves by paddling down the line and taking a high trim in the wave and using their superior planing surface. But, the exception was a couple of kids on potato chips who would make 10 transition turns down the wave to generate speed. Far and away faster by use of the potato chip that the design of the chip.
First, whatever Hart says!
I used to ride a Greenough Spoon (60's) in 1' mush and had some amazingly good results as long as the board was kept in perpetual motion. I found the fin shape and area had as much to do with the performance of the board as the shape. Maybe an oversimplification but they were simpler times and I was considerably lighter and more agile.
I find that I have to change my attack on the wave in transition to small waves, regardless of board size or shape. I haved to make an effort to keep a higher line to generate transition speed and keep from bogging. Again, more and quicker high turns.
The other day I was observing a pack of hungry surfers on a nice 3' semi-closeout Wilma swell here on the Florida Gulf Coast. I was tracking who made the waves and what equipment they were on. The Longboarders-on average- made more waves. They were making waves by paddling down the line and taking a high trim in the wave and using their superior planing surface. But, the exception was a couple of kids on potato chips who would make 10 transition turns down the wave to generate speed. Far and away faster by use of the potato chip that the design of the chip.
Surf Hard Live Slow
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K-man
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post
WAX=I go surfing when other guys can't even see any waves..
Sure I do it all the time,and I've a board that goes in anything under head high,as long as it's flat walled and slushly,it's flat,fat,with mini rocker.
WAX=''and the gentleman who prefer to "leave the designing to the shapers.........KB shapers, that is''If I wasn't so nice I'd probably say DUH!!...But I won't.
Left my decisions to hart,Told him what kind of waves,a few details,shoe size,religion,astrological sign[libra]Chewed his arse a little bit,all those pesky questions that us Ist time buyers go through....
Sitting around waffling about the multitude of design theories for our personal board,is at best[unless we understand all those criteria,and there are afew that do],for me,is less than productive.
COACH SAYS- , when a wave is flat its flat. A board that will create the least drag will be the fastest and go the furthest. When its a 2ft flat wave, there is no going vertical, because the wave is flat, no bottom to drive off.
Right on the money......
Harts flow chart is a good example of ''why''to trust your[KBer shaper..that is]Fact of matter,I printed out the info,and posted it on the fridge with the rest of my religious icons.........
cheers
Sure
I do it all the time,and I've a board that goes in anything under head high,as long as it's flat walled and slushly,it's flat,fat,with mini rocker.WAX=''and the gentleman who prefer to "leave the designing to the shapers.........KB shapers, that is''If I wasn't so nice I'd probably say DUH!!...But I won't.
Left my decisions to hart,Told him what kind of waves,a few details,shoe size,religion,astrological sign[libra]Chewed his arse a little bit,all those pesky questions that us Ist time buyers go through....
Sitting around waffling about the multitude of design theories for our personal board,is at best[unless we understand all those criteria,and there are afew that do],for me,is less than productive.
COACH SAYS- , when a wave is flat its flat. A board that will create the least drag will be the fastest and go the furthest. When its a 2ft flat wave, there is no going vertical, because the wave is flat, no bottom to drive off.
Right on the money......
Harts flow chart is a good example of ''why''to trust your[KBer shaper..that is]Fact of matter,I printed out the info,and posted it on the fridge with the rest of my religious icons.........
cheers
Depending on how small, weak and mushy (think Bendelong comp 2004) all your speed may be generated from your initial paddle. A board with minimal planing speed is essential in such situations. If you can paddle it up onto a plane then you have a good start. Paddle in behind the bowl - one sharp snap and you're flying!
I personally prefer flat bottom under the chest to assist water entry into the rocker low point since this really helps with low speed planing. I find concaves troublesome here, especially if they are combined with vee. There just seems to be too much intertia to overcome before water starts flowing backwards. Could be my large hands, skinny arms coming into play.
Width always beats length (and thickness) for low speed stuff (basic hydrodynamics).
But the trade-off point is the tricky thing.
Splashy,
as Robert A. Heinlein said in "Time enough for Love"
"There comes a time in a man's life where he has to be prepared to shoot his own dog"
Sometimes you just gotta do it yourself
I personally prefer flat bottom under the chest to assist water entry into the rocker low point since this really helps with low speed planing. I find concaves troublesome here, especially if they are combined with vee. There just seems to be too much intertia to overcome before water starts flowing backwards. Could be my large hands, skinny arms coming into play.
Width always beats length (and thickness) for low speed stuff (basic hydrodynamics).
But the trade-off point is the tricky thing.
Splashy,
as Robert A. Heinlein said in "Time enough for Love"
"There comes a time in a man's life where he has to be prepared to shoot his own dog"
Sometimes you just gotta do it yourself
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dorjeseahorse
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Hi wax
learn somthin new everyday!
the shedding speed from riding further back comment (from somewhere above) has been an eye opener to why im still finding the quad more dynamic than the thruster...perhaps not based on fin number but just foward position
Im not sure if thrusters are ever placed as foward as quads...this in part is why im taking out the thruster in 4ft plus and the quad 3ft below
shedding speed is not such an issue when the wave gives you enough speed to happily shed
Im still waiting for that glorios day that i get the chance (read time) to ride both the thruster and the quad on the same day in the same conditions at the same break
both boards i ride are not custom to me so im aware they lack a personlised style match...the quad still suits my natural body foward position but when custom time comes this will be the intersting point of conversation in terms of can a thruster be made to suit my style or will it other elements the produce such as where the wide part of the board is positioned realtive to my knance
blah blah
dorjeseahorse...home computer currently defunked
learn somthin new everyday!
the shedding speed from riding further back comment (from somewhere above) has been an eye opener to why im still finding the quad more dynamic than the thruster...perhaps not based on fin number but just foward position
Im not sure if thrusters are ever placed as foward as quads...this in part is why im taking out the thruster in 4ft plus and the quad 3ft below
shedding speed is not such an issue when the wave gives you enough speed to happily shed
Im still waiting for that glorios day that i get the chance (read time) to ride both the thruster and the quad on the same day in the same conditions at the same break
both boards i ride are not custom to me so im aware they lack a personlised style match...the quad still suits my natural body foward position but when custom time comes this will be the intersting point of conversation in terms of can a thruster be made to suit my style or will it other elements the produce such as where the wide part of the board is positioned realtive to my knance
blah blah
dorjeseahorse...home computer currently defunked
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splashy
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Everyone - read Steeno's comments again.
It's not necessarily about wave size, but it IS about power - which does relate to size.
Don't get too caught up on anything being too prescriptive - ie: tri vs quad.
Whatever goes fastest for you, whatever works for you, whatever you have the most fun on - that is the answer.
Speaking of which...better go check the surf.
It's not necessarily about wave size, but it IS
about power - which does relate to size.Don't get too caught up on anything being too prescriptive - ie: tri vs quad.
Whatever goes fastest for you, whatever works for you, whatever you have the most fun on - that is the answer.
Speaking of which...better go check the surf.
One crowded hour of glorious life is worth an age without a name - so stay tubed!
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Jeff Ommen
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9'6"? I kicked into the lineup at CENSORED one morning and one of the guys in the pack says to me "cool, another kneeboarder!" Puzzled by the comment I look all around to spot the "other" kneeboarder as everyone else in the pack is on nine foot plus boards.Seeing my confusion, the guy tells me he is the other kneeboarder. What? Sure enough, a wave comes through and he takes off on his 9'6" rides it on his knees, full S turns and all.What? Later he tells me he has trimmed his fins so that he can turn the board easier from his knees.To each his own. Ken
On the paddle in..
I don't think bigger flippers and boards are all the answer. I've got a 6'5" with no flat in the entry and a fair bit of rocker and I struggle to paddle it into anything. It's fine being able to land it after going over with the lip, but the terror gets old after a bit (especially in 6' Backyards) and there are only so many free fall take-offs a board can take (3 creases and counting).
You can imagine how the design would hold you back in a small wave board.
I know I've proposed big boards for small waves but even i think an 8' kneeboard in small waves is a bit OTT
I don't think bigger flippers and boards are all the answer. I've got a 6'5" with no flat in the entry and a fair bit of rocker and I struggle to paddle it into anything. It's fine being able to land it after going over with the lip, but the terror gets old after a bit (especially in 6' Backyards) and there are only so many free fall take-offs a board can take (3 creases and counting).
You can imagine how the design would hold you back in a small wave board.
I know I've proposed big boards for small waves but even i think an 8' kneeboard in small waves is a bit OTT