catamaran/piclklefork designs
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mermaidmike
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catamaran/piclklefork designs
Talofa/Aloha- Anyone riding or heard anectdotal evidence on cat/picklefork designs ala Jeff Alexander "Gemini"?? Mermaidmike??l
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Craig
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Pickel fork
I was having an early session @ Kiasers (South shore) one mornning 3' 4'. Two stand ups were riding Pickel forks, wild looking boards. They seemed to work well. It got my wheels turning as to how PF KB'rd might work. Have any Kneelo shapers experimented w/ this concept yet?
Still A Grom!
Still A Grom!
sTiLl a gRoM
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Beeline2.0
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Bryan Jackson
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Although I haven’t ridden a picklefork board (more properly referred to as a catamaran) design I did get to see one in action. What’s more, I got a good close-up look at its design characteristics and elements. I must say that I was impressed by both the board and seeing it in action.
I had first seen a picture of a catamaran board on the internet. It was a while ago so I can’t recall the exact site but it actually was a kneeboard of all things! At the time I did not realize that it was a catamaran design as all that was shown was the top upper half of the board with no further explanation of any sort. I remember thinking that it was probably just some kind of fad or gimmick (double nose with some kind of channeling perhaps to keep from pearling?). That all changed one day late last spring when I was out at Big Rock.
I was sitting out in the line-up when I noticed a fellow walking on the beach with a catamaran board under his arm. I immediately took notice. After he had paddled out and caught a few waves I paddled over to him and asked him about the board. It was a stand-up board but I am sure the same basic principles would apply to a kneeboard. Here is what I learned that day:
He told me that he could ride a catamaran design that was an entire foot shorter than any thruster needed in comparable conditions and still do just as much and more on the wave. He said he was converting his entire quiver to catamarans they were that good! He said they were especially good in quality waves that were steep, fast and hollow but also did well in junk waves (but were definitely at their peak in high-performance situations). He said they caught waves easily, made critical drops, turned on a dime, held an edge, were fast and just generally outperformed thrusters in every way imaginable. He said he had spent a lot of time in Indo, had ridden cats there and, aside from their performance characteristics, traveling with boards a foot shorter than normal was an obvious boon. But the main thing once again was their incredible performance! He said they were catching on in Hawaii but a lot of people still thought the cat design was just a gimmick and so avoided them but that was fine with him because that meant he had an edge over other, younger surfers.
The waves weren’t fantastic or heavy that day but they were fun, shoulder to head high and clean Big Rock. This guy must have been in his late 40’s early 50’s and was no slacker or poser either. He was the real deal. I saw him ride a few nice ones. Made a couple critical sections here and there and the board did perform quite well in conditions that even thrusters were having some trouble dealing with. Like I said the waves weren’t incredible that day but they were good enough to show that the board was not a fluke or a gimmick.
As far as the design itself went, I got a close look at it. Other than the double (aka pickle-fork) nose the board also had a bat tail and, rather unusual for a stand-up board, quad fins (actually as I recall he had several FCS plugs that allowed him to opt for a variety of fin set-ups including quad or five fins). But the main design innovation was that of the catamaran or twin hulls with an extremely deep and wide concave running the entire length of the board. Bat tail and very clean, elegant and smooth rail lines and transitions all the way around. No sharp edges on the rails or hulls other than in the tail.
He said it had been inspired by catamaran sail boats, especially Hobie cats, and the performance characteristics of such sailboats (they kick ass!). However, one drawback to the cat is that is takes a bit more work to shape (for obvious reasons) and also cost a bit more because of that. However if they work as advertised then the extra work and expense is well worth it. A lot of foam is removed from the bottom but I doubt that this would seriously compromise the board’s strength too much however as the deck’s surface is still intact.
I mentioned the cat kneeboard I had seen on the web and he said that that board had probably been shaped by the same guy as had shaped his board, the fellow that Mermaid Mike mentioned, Alexander in IB (who has apparently relocated to Hawaii) as he knew that Alexander had made a cat kneeboard. Obviously just like any kneeboard a cat kneeboard’s design parameters would be different from a standup board but I see no reason why the same basic principles shouldn’t hold true for a cat kneeboard as they do for a standup cat.
Anyway I think all kneelos should be aware that the catamaran design is much more than just a pickle fork nose and is definitely not a fad or gimmick. This is one design innovation that we should all be paying close attention to and investigating further.
P.S. Considering all the other hazards we deal with when surfing, I don’t consider a double nose to be that much of a worry at all.
I had first seen a picture of a catamaran board on the internet. It was a while ago so I can’t recall the exact site but it actually was a kneeboard of all things! At the time I did not realize that it was a catamaran design as all that was shown was the top upper half of the board with no further explanation of any sort. I remember thinking that it was probably just some kind of fad or gimmick (double nose with some kind of channeling perhaps to keep from pearling?). That all changed one day late last spring when I was out at Big Rock.
I was sitting out in the line-up when I noticed a fellow walking on the beach with a catamaran board under his arm. I immediately took notice. After he had paddled out and caught a few waves I paddled over to him and asked him about the board. It was a stand-up board but I am sure the same basic principles would apply to a kneeboard. Here is what I learned that day:
He told me that he could ride a catamaran design that was an entire foot shorter than any thruster needed in comparable conditions and still do just as much and more on the wave. He said he was converting his entire quiver to catamarans they were that good! He said they were especially good in quality waves that were steep, fast and hollow but also did well in junk waves (but were definitely at their peak in high-performance situations). He said they caught waves easily, made critical drops, turned on a dime, held an edge, were fast and just generally outperformed thrusters in every way imaginable. He said he had spent a lot of time in Indo, had ridden cats there and, aside from their performance characteristics, traveling with boards a foot shorter than normal was an obvious boon. But the main thing once again was their incredible performance! He said they were catching on in Hawaii but a lot of people still thought the cat design was just a gimmick and so avoided them but that was fine with him because that meant he had an edge over other, younger surfers.
The waves weren’t fantastic or heavy that day but they were fun, shoulder to head high and clean Big Rock. This guy must have been in his late 40’s early 50’s and was no slacker or poser either. He was the real deal. I saw him ride a few nice ones. Made a couple critical sections here and there and the board did perform quite well in conditions that even thrusters were having some trouble dealing with. Like I said the waves weren’t incredible that day but they were good enough to show that the board was not a fluke or a gimmick.
As far as the design itself went, I got a close look at it. Other than the double (aka pickle-fork) nose the board also had a bat tail and, rather unusual for a stand-up board, quad fins (actually as I recall he had several FCS plugs that allowed him to opt for a variety of fin set-ups including quad or five fins). But the main design innovation was that of the catamaran or twin hulls with an extremely deep and wide concave running the entire length of the board. Bat tail and very clean, elegant and smooth rail lines and transitions all the way around. No sharp edges on the rails or hulls other than in the tail.
He said it had been inspired by catamaran sail boats, especially Hobie cats, and the performance characteristics of such sailboats (they kick ass!). However, one drawback to the cat is that is takes a bit more work to shape (for obvious reasons) and also cost a bit more because of that. However if they work as advertised then the extra work and expense is well worth it. A lot of foam is removed from the bottom but I doubt that this would seriously compromise the board’s strength too much however as the deck’s surface is still intact.
I mentioned the cat kneeboard I had seen on the web and he said that that board had probably been shaped by the same guy as had shaped his board, the fellow that Mermaid Mike mentioned, Alexander in IB (who has apparently relocated to Hawaii) as he knew that Alexander had made a cat kneeboard. Obviously just like any kneeboard a cat kneeboard’s design parameters would be different from a standup board but I see no reason why the same basic principles shouldn’t hold true for a cat kneeboard as they do for a standup cat.
Anyway I think all kneelos should be aware that the catamaran design is much more than just a pickle fork nose and is definitely not a fad or gimmick. This is one design innovation that we should all be paying close attention to and investigating further.
P.S. Considering all the other hazards we deal with when surfing, I don’t consider a double nose to be that much of a worry at all.
pickle fork
There are some pics of a pickle fork kb on Bud's blasthawaii.com site under innovations in the articles section. I reckon the biggest plus of that design is that it's gotta scare the bejesus out of anybody contemplating dropping in on you. Ken-
Beeline2.0
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doc
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Myself, I have to say that my call on these things is that they are, essentially, kinda silly hype. What they are is, so far as I can see and understand 'em, a board with the first foot or so chopped off, give or take those wanna-be manta ray deals on the outside edges. Give or take one hell of a concave from the center which may act to push a little air underneath as a boundary layer. Call it a hydroplane rather than a catamaran, if you're going to go into boat terminology, though 'exaggerated concave' seems closer to me.beeline wrote:Bryan Jackson wrote:Although I haven’t ridden a picklefork board (more properly referred to as a catamaran) design I did get to see one in action.
He told me that he could ride a catamaran design that was an entire foot shorter than any thruster needed in comparable conditions and still do just as much and more on the wave.
Not to knock the Catamaran design.
But for kneeboards there is a certain beneficent advantage to being
able to ride boards a foot longer than usual that ride a foot shorter.
i.e. Aussie Fin Forward Designs.....
Not sure about the vice a versa analogy!
(edited)
All I can say is that if this design were to become an Industry Standard,
you 'd have at least a few kids poking their eyes out and getting maimed
during the beginners learning curve....two sharp nose protrusions widely seperated would not only double the injury rate but inflate that rate beyond a doubling and cause hazards to those nearby on a wipeout.
With a traditional board the chances of getting hit by the tip
arent very high. Especially if you have an opportunity at dodging
that moving tip. Either you get stabbed by that small precise point or your
essentially free and clear.
If we put two nose tips on a board sepearted by 1 inch. You can still
effectively avoid or dodge the tips and your chances of getting poked
go a little higher but most certainly not very much higher in an extreme manner.
If you have two nose tips seperated by a width on the order of the
width of the board, you have something that is essentially very difficult to dodge ,in particular situations, either purposely or during a tumultous wipeout when your being ragdolled with your board very nearby.
If somebody wanted to make one without the little horns up front ( and I don't) by chopping the first foot of nose off a board, rounding it over a little and adding that channel in the center, then by all means do.
Take about two passes with a planer along the stringer for about a foot to make a channel that is tapering from a half inch to nil, sand lightly re-glass and there you go. The rest of the board, the part that's actually in the water doing something, seems to me to be pretty much identical with more conventional boards. The horns appear to serve no purpose other than as a great way to discourage somebody from dropping in.
'Course, that's my opinion. Based on watching decades of surf industry hype. I tend to believe very little in the way of 'breakthrough innovations' .
doc.........
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Bryan Jackson
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Fish are not Cats!
Well if it weren't for 'breakthrough innovations' I guess we'd all still be riding rudderless boards made out of redwood planks!
I think the surfing world has definitely gotten itself into a rut with the tri-fin thruster and its associated style of surfing, so it is good to see a bit of experimentation and new thinking going on ala standup boards.
Seems to me that KB'ers, starting with Greenough, have always been a bit more progressive and innovative in their thinking, but from some of the comments and opinions expressed on this site it would seem as if we are becoming a bit more conservative nowadays!
The Fish is definitely not a catamaran design, as just having a double tail does not a Cat make. A Catamaran must have a twin hulled design to qualify as a true Cat. The Fish does not have a twin hull design, therefore the Fish is not a Cat!
I found the indepth discussion on the UK site regarding deep concaves to be very informative if not a bit technical/esoteric.
The dangerous double tip problem is easily dealt with, just round each tip off as having sharp tips doesn't really seem to be a matter of function, just appearance.
And why is a double nose anymore dangerous than a double tail (ala Fish or Swallow tails)? Or having four fins to get cut up on (instead of just one or two)? Or having a leash to get all tangled up with during a bad wipeout? Seems to me you pays yer money and you takes yer chances!
To be sure the Cat will never become an industry standard and thus not all that common. At best it would be like the Fish. The Cat would definitely not be a learner's board.
On the other hand, the Thruster is not a very good learner/beginner's board at all but you still see a lot of people at that stage in their surfing career riding them. Why? Because they have all been sold a bill of goods by the surf industry, that's why! The thinking (if you can call it that) seems to be "If Kelly Slater or Sunny Garcia (or insert whatever pro's name here) is riding one then that is what I have to ride"!
Of course, the advantage of this is that you have a lot of people out in the water who really aren't catching/riding all that many waves, they are just sitting their trying to look cool. The disadvantage, you still have a lot of people out in the water clogging up the line-up!
Anyway never having ridden a Cat I couldn't say for sure whether or not they actually offer KB'ers any real advantage. Perhaps they don't. Perhaps they are just a fad or whimsy. But once again, if not for people innovating, trying out something new and different, we'd all be riding those redwood planks!
I was just reporting on what I had observed firsthand (as opposed to pure personal opinion). I, for one, would like to hear from someone who does have firsthand knowledge of how they ride or, better yet, get a chance to try one out for myself!
BTW, if I could ride a board that was a foot shorter but still rode just as well as the longer board I would go for it. Why the hell not? If nothing else, just the fact that it was easier to transport would make it worth it. If it was short enough you might even be able disguise it as a body board and avoid those costly airline charges/rip-offs when traveling!
I think the surfing world has definitely gotten itself into a rut with the tri-fin thruster and its associated style of surfing, so it is good to see a bit of experimentation and new thinking going on ala standup boards.
Seems to me that KB'ers, starting with Greenough, have always been a bit more progressive and innovative in their thinking, but from some of the comments and opinions expressed on this site it would seem as if we are becoming a bit more conservative nowadays!
The Fish is definitely not a catamaran design, as just having a double tail does not a Cat make. A Catamaran must have a twin hulled design to qualify as a true Cat. The Fish does not have a twin hull design, therefore the Fish is not a Cat!
I found the indepth discussion on the UK site regarding deep concaves to be very informative if not a bit technical/esoteric.
The dangerous double tip problem is easily dealt with, just round each tip off as having sharp tips doesn't really seem to be a matter of function, just appearance.
And why is a double nose anymore dangerous than a double tail (ala Fish or Swallow tails)? Or having four fins to get cut up on (instead of just one or two)? Or having a leash to get all tangled up with during a bad wipeout? Seems to me you pays yer money and you takes yer chances!
To be sure the Cat will never become an industry standard and thus not all that common. At best it would be like the Fish. The Cat would definitely not be a learner's board.
On the other hand, the Thruster is not a very good learner/beginner's board at all but you still see a lot of people at that stage in their surfing career riding them. Why? Because they have all been sold a bill of goods by the surf industry, that's why! The thinking (if you can call it that) seems to be "If Kelly Slater or Sunny Garcia (or insert whatever pro's name here) is riding one then that is what I have to ride"!
Of course, the advantage of this is that you have a lot of people out in the water who really aren't catching/riding all that many waves, they are just sitting their trying to look cool. The disadvantage, you still have a lot of people out in the water clogging up the line-up!
Anyway never having ridden a Cat I couldn't say for sure whether or not they actually offer KB'ers any real advantage. Perhaps they don't. Perhaps they are just a fad or whimsy. But once again, if not for people innovating, trying out something new and different, we'd all be riding those redwood planks!
I was just reporting on what I had observed firsthand (as opposed to pure personal opinion). I, for one, would like to hear from someone who does have firsthand knowledge of how they ride or, better yet, get a chance to try one out for myself!
BTW, if I could ride a board that was a foot shorter but still rode just as well as the longer board I would go for it. Why the hell not? If nothing else, just the fact that it was easier to transport would make it worth it. If it was short enough you might even be able disguise it as a body board and avoid those costly airline charges/rip-offs when traveling!
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DarcyM
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cataraman or pickelfork
I've seen a guy riding the pickelfork (double nose) design pretty regularly at Windansea. He's a good surfer, middle-age guy, and he says that the design works really well for him, and it rides like a shorter board than the length. It does look a bit scary when he's coming at you and you're paddling out. I can't say whether it's made him a better surfer, he's good but not spectacular.
Then again, some kid on a conventional contest style thruster was busting big air re-entries on every wave in the shorebreak yesterday (someone who doesn't have to pay for his boards) like there was no tomorrow. He landed a few, bailed on some, and almost made a lot of them. So what kind of board are the kids going to want? Sort of a no-brainer. Which board performs better? Hard to say -- so much depends on the individual.
What works for me is often what I'm most used to. And if I had a lot more disposable income, I would have a lot more opportunity to get used to a greater variety of boards. Maybe our conservative approach isn't so much our lack of willingness to experiment as it is a reluctance to part with $500 on a regular basis for those experiments.
dm
Then again, some kid on a conventional contest style thruster was busting big air re-entries on every wave in the shorebreak yesterday (someone who doesn't have to pay for his boards) like there was no tomorrow. He landed a few, bailed on some, and almost made a lot of them. So what kind of board are the kids going to want? Sort of a no-brainer. Which board performs better? Hard to say -- so much depends on the individual.
What works for me is often what I'm most used to. And if I had a lot more disposable income, I would have a lot more opportunity to get used to a greater variety of boards. Maybe our conservative approach isn't so much our lack of willingness to experiment as it is a reluctance to part with $500 on a regular basis for those experiments.
dm
dm
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"Push the button, Max!"
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hart
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Contemporary thought.
Darcy,
What a good post..and Bryan makes some good points..and then so does Doc.
Darcy that kid was ripping on a thruster..but not so much that it was for free, (and I'm sure you're right about the cost) it was because it is a great design. If someone gave him a single fin, even for free, I don't believe he would surf it as well or as consistantly as you observed
We have evolved into thrusters from one of Bryan's (and our) 'technological breakthroughs'.
Bryan, experimentation is a good thing..and on a custom level, kneeboard surfers have it all over our standup cousins when we choose our next board.
A standup would get their choice of length and thickness (usually because it comes from a machine) and only up until recently, now know what width works best for them.
Kneeboarders however have a much higher degree of input into what their shaper does..highly individualised stuff..a lot of which, the mainstream surfing market wouldn't tolerate.
Two kneeboards..even from the one shaper, may be worlds apart and come from completely different angles..yet a lot of six-one shorties (think standup) can look alarmingly similar..doesn't even seem to matter if they come from a different country. Japan OZ Brazil the US
I try to take design one step at a time and keep the thread of history in there..but watch for what's happening around you..just like Darcy is doing with that kid on a thruster.
The wheel has already been invented for us by some very clever, individualistic surfers..let's move forward with what we see and what we know, yet not ignore the past.
Transition through tradition..it's there at our finger tips if we look closely.
And what an unbelievable vehicle this site is to help us try.
Regards, as always from OZ
What a good post..and Bryan makes some good points..and then so does Doc.
Darcy that kid was ripping on a thruster..but not so much that it was for free, (and I'm sure you're right about the cost) it was because it is a great design. If someone gave him a single fin, even for free, I don't believe he would surf it as well or as consistantly as you observed
We have evolved into thrusters from one of Bryan's (and our) 'technological breakthroughs'.
Bryan, experimentation is a good thing..and on a custom level, kneeboard surfers have it all over our standup cousins when we choose our next board.
A standup would get their choice of length and thickness (usually because it comes from a machine) and only up until recently, now know what width works best for them.
Kneeboarders however have a much higher degree of input into what their shaper does..highly individualised stuff..a lot of which, the mainstream surfing market wouldn't tolerate.
Two kneeboards..even from the one shaper, may be worlds apart and come from completely different angles..yet a lot of six-one shorties (think standup) can look alarmingly similar..doesn't even seem to matter if they come from a different country. Japan OZ Brazil the US
I try to take design one step at a time and keep the thread of history in there..but watch for what's happening around you..just like Darcy is doing with that kid on a thruster.
The wheel has already been invented for us by some very clever, individualistic surfers..let's move forward with what we see and what we know, yet not ignore the past.
Transition through tradition..it's there at our finger tips if we look closely.
And what an unbelievable vehicle this site is to help us try.
Regards, as always from OZ
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doc
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Re: cataraman or pickelfork
Darcy, I think you've got it nailed there. Our idea of a board working better is all in our heads, it's not like we go and tank test the things for speed and resistance and turning ability. If I think a board works better for me, then that's what I'm gonna say it does, whether it actually goes faster or not, turns better or not. And some of that, especially in the hype-driven surfboard industry, is gonna be purely psychological. I've been around long enough to observe the industry hyping something different, not necessarily better, regularly. It does accomplish something. It sells boards.DarcyM wrote:I've seen a guy riding the pickelfork (double nose) design pretty regularly at Windansea. He's a good surfer, middle-age guy, and he says that the design works really well for him, and it rides like a shorter board than the length. It does look a bit scary when he's coming at you and you're paddling out. I can't say whether it's made him a better surfer, he's good but not spectacular.
Then again, some kid on a conventional contest style thruster was busting big air re-entries on every wave in the shorebreak yesterday (someone who doesn't have to pay for his boards) like there was no tomorrow. He landed a few, bailed on some, and almost made a lot of them. So what kind of board are the kids going to want? Sort of a no-brainer. Which board performs better? Hard to say -- so much depends on the individual.
What works for me is often what I'm most used to. And if I had a lot more disposable income, I would have a lot more opportunity to get used to a greater variety of boards. Maybe our conservative approach isn't so much our lack of willingness to experiment as it is a reluctance to part with $500 on a regular basis for those experiments.
dm
And then there's the fact that the waves are a little different every day - hell, every individual wave is different. To get the consistancy to do real meaningful tests I'd have to build my own Flowrider or something, possibly involving those standing waves you find in rivers. I've tried to think of a way to do useful model tests and I really can't come up with anything. Shame about that, as that would be a quick, inexpensive and easy way to get real ( as opposed to 'Whoa, duude, that was gnaarrllyy' ) answers to what goes faster and such.
Then you have the question of making small adjustments to the board to see what they do - about the only way I can think of it being relatively easy is with a flex board, where you could grind off or saw off some of it to affect how it works. With a FRP-skinned foam board it's very different, far more difficult and expensive. Say, you want to change the rocker a skosh - beep, there went X dollars in materials and labor.
So- the state of the art is you get a new board ( which may or may not be significantly different than your last one ) and you try it out. If you think it works better, then you say so ( whether it does or not) and somebody goes from there...and the same thing happens. Lots of blind alleys get very thoroughly explored.
Fortunately, we as kneeboarders and experimenters have a certain advantage. We don't run with the pack, we're odd ducks riding odd boards to begin with. Not being the usual run of popout longboard riding sheep, we tend to be a bit more analytical and not being driven by contests and hype we tend to go off in different directions and experiment.
If it were known by the sheep as a whole that the real advances in the design of their sheep-boards originally were from kneeboards and not from their overpaid surf stars...heh, we might get a leetle more respect out there.
It's a good thang we don't. I kinda prefer being a techno oddity.
doc.......................
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Bryan Jackson
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Mixed messages!
Maybe it’s me and I just don‘t get it, but there seems to be some mixed if not conflicting messages being sent here about the whole idea of experimentation and KBer’s as being some kind of “techno oddities” in the surfing world.
On the one hand we celebrate KBing’s status as a group of committed, eccentric and idiosyncratic individuals unwilling to blindly follow the conventions, norms, and hype of the mainstream surfing world.
On the other hand there seems to be a steady refrain of “this that or the other design is just a bunch of silly hype” and “please just give me what works”!
Can those two attitudes peacefully coexist?
Please take note here that I have absolutely no vested interest in promoting the Cat. I am not a board manufacturer, shaper, nor seller. I just think it is an extremely interesting idea/design and I wanted to add to the discussion a bit, share what I had observed and the little I knew about it.
To begin with, I don’t think you can apply the label of ‘surf industry hype’ to the Cat at all because I don’t see it being pushed by that same industry. In fact I have never even seen it mentioned in the mainstream surf media, and I read their rags on a semi-regular basis.
The surf industry is much too heavily invested in the Thruster and/or long boards to really promote any other designs or way of thinking. (True the Fish does get some press but not too much. It is promoted mainly as a good standup board for use in summertime fun or small junk waves, which is quite interesting in that KBer’s have the exact opposite view of it; that it is a good board for large hollow dredging waves!)
But it seems to me that on this forum the Cat was being dismissed out of hand by people who were willing to readily label it as some kind of over-hyped fad (which it obviously is not), dangerous to boot, and thus unworthy of any further serious discussion or thought.
Yet those doing so seemed to have no direct experience with it whatsoever, at least no one claimed to have actually ridden one. (Could that be a result of resentment towards the idea that some standup surfers might actually be ahead of the curve on this one? Or, if you believe in conspiracy theories, perhaps the Cats are such incredibly high performance boards that those few in the know wish to keep it a secret unto themselves and so are misleading the rest of us!)
It certainly is true that we all ride what we are comfortable with and tend to stick with what we know best (and I include myself in this category). It is also true that what we think works best is quite subjective, greatly influenced by others and extremely difficult to objectively test or quantify.
And considering the fact that even something as simple as keeping the same basic design but changing from one shaper to another can throw us way off, then you realize how much harder it is for us to expand our thinking beyond recognized boundaries and accept or even just try something radically new or different. (And this is true despite our view of ourselves, as KBer’s, as some kind of eccentric rebels and innovators in the surfing world!)
As a personal illustration of this, I remember when I first acquired my Blast rounded pintail after I had been riding a Romanosky rounded pin for the longest time. It really took me a while to get used to the Blast much less get it truly wired, and at first I wouldn’t even take it out in any kind of challenging conditions (i.e., large, hollow waves) because I was so unsure of how it would perform. But once I did get it ‘dialed in’ it quickly became my favorite board!
Now although there are obvious fundamental differences in the design parameters of Buddy’s and Ron’s boards, when you come right down to it they are still more or the less the same basic design, at least much closer to each other than either is to a Cat design, for example!
So although this forum has opened up an interesting philosophical discussion regarding KBer’s attitudes towards experimentation and/or innovation, I still would like to hear from someone who has actually ridden a Cat (and not just once or twice as that is not enough to adequately test it) and can provide us with some informed opinions/advice/feedback based on those experiences rather than mere uninformed speculation and/or bias!
BTW, I am not a lawyer but I do have a formal background/training in the social sciences and teaching.
P.S. - I suspect that the older Cat surfer out at Windansea that Darcy mentioned is the same Cat surfer I observed at Big Rock (as discussed in my first post) as he said he lived in that area. His board was colored orange-yellow.
On the one hand we celebrate KBing’s status as a group of committed, eccentric and idiosyncratic individuals unwilling to blindly follow the conventions, norms, and hype of the mainstream surfing world.
On the other hand there seems to be a steady refrain of “this that or the other design is just a bunch of silly hype” and “please just give me what works”!
Can those two attitudes peacefully coexist?
Please take note here that I have absolutely no vested interest in promoting the Cat. I am not a board manufacturer, shaper, nor seller. I just think it is an extremely interesting idea/design and I wanted to add to the discussion a bit, share what I had observed and the little I knew about it.
To begin with, I don’t think you can apply the label of ‘surf industry hype’ to the Cat at all because I don’t see it being pushed by that same industry. In fact I have never even seen it mentioned in the mainstream surf media, and I read their rags on a semi-regular basis.
The surf industry is much too heavily invested in the Thruster and/or long boards to really promote any other designs or way of thinking. (True the Fish does get some press but not too much. It is promoted mainly as a good standup board for use in summertime fun or small junk waves, which is quite interesting in that KBer’s have the exact opposite view of it; that it is a good board for large hollow dredging waves!)
But it seems to me that on this forum the Cat was being dismissed out of hand by people who were willing to readily label it as some kind of over-hyped fad (which it obviously is not), dangerous to boot, and thus unworthy of any further serious discussion or thought.
Yet those doing so seemed to have no direct experience with it whatsoever, at least no one claimed to have actually ridden one. (Could that be a result of resentment towards the idea that some standup surfers might actually be ahead of the curve on this one? Or, if you believe in conspiracy theories, perhaps the Cats are such incredibly high performance boards that those few in the know wish to keep it a secret unto themselves and so are misleading the rest of us!)
It certainly is true that we all ride what we are comfortable with and tend to stick with what we know best (and I include myself in this category). It is also true that what we think works best is quite subjective, greatly influenced by others and extremely difficult to objectively test or quantify.
And considering the fact that even something as simple as keeping the same basic design but changing from one shaper to another can throw us way off, then you realize how much harder it is for us to expand our thinking beyond recognized boundaries and accept or even just try something radically new or different. (And this is true despite our view of ourselves, as KBer’s, as some kind of eccentric rebels and innovators in the surfing world!)
As a personal illustration of this, I remember when I first acquired my Blast rounded pintail after I had been riding a Romanosky rounded pin for the longest time. It really took me a while to get used to the Blast much less get it truly wired, and at first I wouldn’t even take it out in any kind of challenging conditions (i.e., large, hollow waves) because I was so unsure of how it would perform. But once I did get it ‘dialed in’ it quickly became my favorite board!
Now although there are obvious fundamental differences in the design parameters of Buddy’s and Ron’s boards, when you come right down to it they are still more or the less the same basic design, at least much closer to each other than either is to a Cat design, for example!
So although this forum has opened up an interesting philosophical discussion regarding KBer’s attitudes towards experimentation and/or innovation, I still would like to hear from someone who has actually ridden a Cat (and not just once or twice as that is not enough to adequately test it) and can provide us with some informed opinions/advice/feedback based on those experiences rather than mere uninformed speculation and/or bias!
BTW, I am not a lawyer but I do have a formal background/training in the social sciences and teaching.
P.S. - I suspect that the older Cat surfer out at Windansea that Darcy mentioned is the same Cat surfer I observed at Big Rock (as discussed in my first post) as he said he lived in that area. His board was colored orange-yellow.
-
hart
- Legend (Contribution King!)
- Posts: 928
- Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:46 pm
- Location: Dee Why, Sydney.
Subjective thought
Hey Bryan,
I realise you're hoping for a 'cat' surfer to respond..so I will keep this brief.
I can't say though that I have ever seen a fish surfed in the waves you describe..probably an OZ thing..but the straight outlines and bottom flats of a fish are not the things that we look for in guns, or semi-guns. In fact, it is the opposite..we look for curve. And an absence of pod.
And I'm not sure how much the Surf Industry has 'invested' in thrusters..it came out of the water..not the pages of a surf mag.
The next front cover of Surfing Life will have a thruster on it only because the best pic they have of someone in the water will be of a guy riding one..not because of some form of investment, vested or otherwise.
And if the guy from Big Rock gets it together..one day, it may be him.
Regards, once more from OZ.
I realise you're hoping for a 'cat' surfer to respond..so I will keep this brief.
I can't say though that I have ever seen a fish surfed in the waves you describe..probably an OZ thing..but the straight outlines and bottom flats of a fish are not the things that we look for in guns, or semi-guns. In fact, it is the opposite..we look for curve. And an absence of pod.
And I'm not sure how much the Surf Industry has 'invested' in thrusters..it came out of the water..not the pages of a surf mag.
The next front cover of Surfing Life will have a thruster on it only because the best pic they have of someone in the water will be of a guy riding one..not because of some form of investment, vested or otherwise.
And if the guy from Big Rock gets it together..one day, it may be him.
Regards, once more from OZ.