catamaran/piclklefork designs

[DarcyM]

Bryan -

P.S. - I suspect that the older Cat surfer out at Windansea that Darcy mentioned is the same Cat surfer I observed at Big Rock .... as he said he lived in that area. His board was colored orange-yellow.

yeah, probably the same guy -- he has a yellow board and others with the same shape.

I've had similar experience as you had with kneeboards, riding mostly Romo shapes until just recently, and now waiting to get the Blast board wired. I don't think folks are as reluctant to experiment as we are hesitant to try something so radically different when it means money out of our pockets. Like you said, we end up experimenting in small increments. But sometimes we get together and have these gatherings where we can suddenly share radically different boards. If someone were to bring a kneeboard catamaran shape to a gathering, I would like to give it a try. And I think after a couple waves you'd know at least whether you wanted to keep trying it. I have no resentment toward any design, if someone is stoked about what they're riding and it works for them I think that's great. I'll try it until I can decide if it works for me too, or not.

As to whether the catamaran/picklefork is the next big breakthrough in design -- eh, hard to say. So much of what brought the Thruster into the mainstream in the 80's (rather than the bonzer) was the same thing that brought the twin fin surfboard into the limelight back in the 70's -- two talented surfers (Simon Anderson and Mark Richards) ripping on them in front of the cameras and the judges. Part of what makes something popular IS the Media, like it or not. And after that, different people experiment with the design and refine it and the public wants it so more of them are around and being ridden and giving the shapers feedback, and it continues to be refined and tweaked for a variety of different riders in a huge variety of conditions. You can't get that kind of refinement when only a tiny percentage of the surfers are riding a particular design. So this guy rides the picklefork board, and maybe a couple other people do too, until the designer can no longer get new people to try it and he shelves the idea and goes back to shaping what sells.

You could have a brand new totally different radical kneeboard design that blows everything out of the water, and a totally committed professional guy riding it like crazy from the US to Hawaii to SA to Australia. Is it going to become the next new thing in surfing? Sadly, probably not, because the ignorant masses aren't going to notice until it's on the front page of a magazine. The guy riding the picklefork in La Jolla could really be on to something, but he's not making the cover of the magazines. As sad as that is, that's just the way it is.

The reason the surf industry is invested in longboards and thrusters is because they work for a huge population of surfers, whether they're innovators or just cattle following the crowd. Seventy percent of the time I look at breaks where a longboard is (like it or not) probably the most practical board choice for the waves out there. It's no wonder they're so popular here.

Because we're kneeboarders, we're already breaking the mold, so to speak. Are there designs out there that will be even more innovative? Probably. I think that as a group we are all becoming more open to that because we're exposing each other to these designs and ideas that we've never had the chance to see. Prior to the gatherings, each of us might have been insulated within our own ideas of what works in a world with few if any other kneeboarders. Thanks to this forum and the gatherings, I have seen more different shapes and styles of kneeboards than I ever could have imagined or known from my day to day surfing.

Come to our gatherings, and I think you'll be pleasantly amazed as well.

dm

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[Bryan Jackson]

Hey Hart,

No problem. Even though you may not ride a cat, as a shaper you can provide us with valid insight regarding board design, cat, fish or otherwise, and intellectual discussions regarding philosophical approaches to board design and the sorry state of the money-grubbing surf industry are always of interest.

I didn’t quite follow your argument regarding fish (“can't say…I have ever seen a fish surfed in the waves you describe…”). Were you referring to standup surfers or KB’ers? Because as far as I am aware for the most part standup surfers here in the U.S. definitely look upon the fish as a small fun wave type board, mostly because that is what they have been told it is good for.

Now obviously this is not a hard and fast rule and some standups have broke through this boundary (Tommy Curren in Indo, for example). I also know for a fact that Buddy regards the fish design as most suited for hollow dredging type waves (check out his comments on the Blast web site). So perhaps you could clarify your comments somewhat.

When I refer to the surf industry as being 'invested' in thrusters, I am referring not necessarily to money here (although that is obviously a the bottom line so to speak), but rather to the fact that the surf industry is a huge business selling a tremendous array of not just boards but clothing, footwear, sunglasses, surf tourism, etc., etc., etc., to a large mass of mostly young, unaware and unassuming consumers, and that selling in turn is based upon an image, a particular look and attitude that revolves almost entirely around the thruster and its associated style of surfing.

As one small proof of this just look at the tremendous amount of hype (a rather fitting term this time around) and self-importance placed upon surf competitions and determining who is the best surfer in the world. The plain fact of the matter is that without exception all the contestants are using thrusters who are all scored based upon how well they pull off certain moves that are based in large part upon the thrusters performance characteristics and/or accepted moves once again based on the thruster!

Now that is not to say that the thruster is not a good to excellent board design (as you say, “it came out of the water...not the pages of a surf mag...” although it does have its limitations), just that the commercial surfing world has now bought into that image and style of riding lock, stock, and barrel and thinking outside of that box is actively discouraged. (If it weren’t, then kneelos would be readily included in the pages of those mags!)

Although as you say the “next front cover of Surfing Life will have a thruster on it only because the best pic they have of someone in the water will be of a guy riding one”, that is because most surfers are riding thrusters and anything outside of that accepted boundary is just not promoted by the mainstream media (of course I leave out any discussion of long boards here, but in a rather perverse way the same holds true for them too, because they are really just a reaction to the dominance of the thruster in the surfing world and the fact that many older surfers could not perform on thrusters or at least did not find them to their liking or style of surfing). Once again, kneelos could easily grace the covers of those mags if our style of riding were accepted by the mainstream surf media.

I wrote this prior to your latest post Darcy, and once again you make some good personal observations, but I'm wondering how you can justify the popularity of the thruster because it works for a large proportion of the surfing population and then later refer to them as "ignorant masses"? Seems rather contradictory to me.

[hart]

Maybe this should be coming thru on another thread..I'm still waiting for a 'cat' response..but I hope it's cool, I've got to respond

Darcy, once more you make sense. But, MR was on target for World No.4 when Simon Ando beat him twice in the one year..and yet it was still Twinfins on the covers...and Twinfins in the surfshops..The media and retail are always a market behind what's actually happening.

In terms of hardware that is..the hard product..the thing in the water..the one touch of authenticism that surfboards bring to the cosmetic world of surf fashion, media and retail.

And we are talking hardware here.

Why are we so into what's happening in the media?

Thanks Bryan for your response..I had the privelidge to work with Curran in his second World Title year..When he came to Sydney he had me rip out the fins on three of his shortboards and tune them for Aussie conditions (three thrusters)..he made the semi's in the Coke and won Bells on 'kneeboard surfer' fin foils and angles. I saw a lot of it unfold at North Steyne with my own eyes.

Whether he knew it or not, he was being influenced by a kneeboarder..(and he did).

Curran is the most unassuming and modest pro-surfer that I have ever met..and one of the most gifted.

He rides anything he choses with ease..the consumate professional.

About fishes? Yes, I was talking about kneeboards..like I said, it must be an Aussie thing..cause I don't know what Bud thinks.

I see a lot of Aussie surfers riding big waves on things other than fishes. Just another observation.

And I truly believe that a kneeboarder WOULD be considered for a front page if the photo was better than the rest..but I've not yet seen one.

But what does it matter anyway..cause it's not what we're about.

Thanks.

[DarcyM]

but I'm wondering how you can justify the popularity of the thruster because it works for a large proportion of the surfing population and then later refer to them as "ignorant masses"? Seems rather contradictory to me.

Bryan -

we've all been part of the ignorant masses at one time, I use the term only in the most endearing of ways. The boards DO work for the ignorant masses, those two terms are not exclusionary. What the masses are ignorant of, if they so choose to be ignorant and not try something else, is the availabilty and possibilities of something else. Whether it be pickelfork, twin fins, four-fins, five, etc.

Like Hart pointed out, the twin fin was being trumped by the tri-fin in contests long before the ignorant masses caught on. They still wanted twins, and that's what the surf shops were stocking.

I think we have agreed on what is popular and why. The influence of the media and the peer pressure and sales hype is something that kneeboarders by virture of our abnormality and inherent individuality don't have to abide by. The question is, how much does what is popular and accepted influence our willingness to try something new?


dm

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[DarcyM]

We are not all little individualistic ,innovative, 'unswayed by the media'
Little Georgies.

It's kinda hard to be swayed by the media when the media doesn't know we exist ...

Despite George's influence, I don't think any of us should aspire to be George, or Steve Lis, or ... Imitating an innovator is no innovation, just plagarism. Those guys did great things for our sport, but you also don't have to change the world to be an individual in your own world, or your own backyard. You are unique ... (just like everybody else!)

Just because Jack or Troy or Bob or Albert rips on a certain shape or style of board doesn't mean that I will too. Maybe because I'm just a girl ... Or maybe because I'm a different type of rider (worse) than thay are.

But we can be innovative by being less constrained with what is accepted or what is "hot" right now, and by taking bits and pieces of what we like and what works and try to find what works for us. Without having to please anyone (sponsors, media, or our adoring public) by riding or doing or wearing simply what's popular, kneeboarders can be innovative and individuals without a whole lot of risk to our future or career. Hell, they don't understand us anyway. Those surfers and shapers that are in the media spotlight are almost constantly under that microscope, that ever present scrutiny, and they have to present a product that the public wants to buy. George's innovations came from being free to experiment. We don't have to perform in any way other than what is natural for us. If someone notices and likes it -- cool; but if they don't, so what? That's not what most of us are after, I think. There's a great freedom in that kind of anonymity. We should cherish the freedoms we have.

boy, has this topic gone off on a tangent ....
dm

[Smokin Rock]

can't we all just get along?...............without the media and mass acceptance.

[Bryan Jackson]

Last night I did a web search on catamaran surfboards and, believe it or not, actually found something substantial on the subject. For those interested in gaining some valuable insight on this remarkable design innovation as well as some pics of these boards in action go to www.alexandersurfboards.com.

Jeff Alexander is the name of the shaper who developed this innovation and holds a patent for the design. In addition, the latest online Surfer Mag has an article about the boards and discusses the non-acceptance and thoughtless dismissal of this design by the surfing world. Quite interesting from a sociological perspective and there are some quite valid comparisons to the similar non-acceptance/dismissal of the thruster design when it was first introduced.

Alexander calls his design the Gemini and states that it is not a true catamaran, that is, two completely separate hulls (BTW, I didn’t see any use of the term picklefork on either web site, so that is probably a derisive misnomer best left unused) as a true catamaran surfboard would likely be impossible to ride. His idea for the Gemini, however, was inspired by catamaran sailboats (another interesting factoid, the mainstream sailboat world readily dismissed catamaran sailboats when they were first introduced).

The description of the design performance parameters of the Gemini is intriguing. Yes the Gemini is largely a way to increase the hydroplaning abilities/charateristics of the board, but to those who dismiss this as a mere gimmick, you are entirely missing the point. The point being that all short boards, including kneeboards, rely upon the fact that at speed they hydroplane, which is why they must be ridden in fast powerful waves to really come into their own. Simply put:

IF THEY DID NOT HYDROPLANE THEY WOULD NOT PERFORM!

Perhaps the ultimate example of this phenomenon is the Greenough Spoon. How can a board with almost no flotation whatsoever perform so incredibly well (in the right conditions, that is)? Because as soon as it is flying down the face of the wave it hydroplanes, that’s why.

HYDROPLANING=SPEED=POWER

(Combine that with stability and maneuverability as the Gemini apparently does, well the possibilities are endless...)

Even the majority of us who do not ride Greenough Spoons are well aware of the fact that kneeboarding is, if not impossible, then extremely frustrating and unsatisfactory in small gutless surf (the same holds true for thrusters), and in such conditions you are better off with a long board (yes I know there are those who can perform wonders in such conditions but they are the exception, not the rule!). If the kneeboard/thruster is not hydroplaning then it becomes bogged down, pushing water like a bad barge!

So it would seem only logical to me to want to increase your boards hydroplaning abilities as much as possible while still retaining as much control as possible, which the Gemini apparently does.

In addition, the Gemini design claims to offer some other rather distinct advantages which I won’t discuss in detail here as all this info is on the Alexander website. If you have an open mind or any curiosity at all just take a close look at the web site.

[DrStrange]

Ohmygod!! I think I know this Jeff fellow. I worked as polisher at Channin in early 70's (a very sweet gig! wholesale equipement, good pay, lot of time to surf, friendly crew...). There were 3 Jeff's there at the time (well I'm Geoff). The first, long time hire was called Jeff, I was the second on board and called Radar, the 3rd got the fuzzy end of the stick and was known as Buns. Pretty sure its him. Pic on the website is a bit fuzzy and long time has gone by but... He was an excellent surfer even then. Charged like a mad dog. And an innovator. About 1973 or 74 everyone else was on single fins and the rare fish. Jeff had made and tacked on edge biters for an early 3 fin design. I happened to see his first go-out by the guard tower at Del Mar and he got noticably more drive out of his experiment. Kind of fun to see him still charging and experimenting. I emailed him a congrats via the web site...

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[Scott]

Taking in all this discussion about innovative design, I find myself wondering how can kneelos, as a whole, participate in moving forward on design? Shapers out there, you should weigh in on this question because you know the economics and the process the best.

For most of us, as has been mentioned, not many will want to plunk down $400+ for an experimental design. We want to ride it first, see others ride it and react to it. In the last few weeks I've been exposed to more design ideas, and seen more pictures of boards quite unlike what I've been riding the last decade, than I have for several years. But they run the risk of just remaining ideas on a site.

To my naive way of thinking, I would like to see shapers who would have a penchant for experimenting a bit (and can do it at somewhat less cost than the rest of us who order boards,) bring a few of their specialty boards to some of the upcoming kneelo gatherings--let a few of us try them out. How else would I have a shot at trying a catamaran-style board, or something else exotic but with some basis in real hydrodynamics?

Heck, take up a "special offering" to cover some of the production costs. I'm in!

[MTBarrels]

A person I surf with regularly has had two pickleforks (the term he uses even if Jeff doesn't) for a couple of years now. He uses them in larger surf but one of his longboards in smaller surf. The next time he brings the picklefork out during the day I'll try to get some pics in response to the questions posted earlier in this thread.