FLASHPOINT

[IKAIKA]

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[kripchik]

Hey Hart

I am looking at getting a gun for some overseas travel. What sort of tail should I go for? I currently have a swallow tail and my last board was a rounded pin.

cheers
Sophia

[hart]

Hi Sophia,

Ultimately it would depend on where you were headed and how big the board was.

'True' guns are like 7' 6" Gavin Colman and 7' 0" Kyle Bryant..and they were both traditional pintails..like real pinny.

Simon surfs more semi-guns like 6' 6"..and they utilise his preferred double-wing, area pintail type approach. While he surfs very narrow boards by comparison..he hates tails that are too pinny..and wouldn't surf the boards mentioned above.

But big boards for Indo would be done a little differently than say big ones for Vico or Sydney Bombies for example.

Even G-land is different to other parts of Indo..you allways surf the second biggest board you've got..coz it' such a perfect wave that you don't need a true gun..even when it's real big.

Hope it helps..

Bruce

[geetee]

talking to Kyle the other day and he said he mostly travels with a 6'5" as his long board. he was surfing with us on a board that used to be about 6' until he cut a few inches off the nose with an angle grinder. as Hart said his boards are very pinny in the tail, even the short board.

[kripchik]

Thanks Bruce

We have been looking at going to Indo - Mentawis and the Maldives. Plus I am going to New Caledonia in April, but that doesn't seem to get too big.

Cheers
Sophia

[WayneK]

Hey Bruce First, I would like to say WE really appreciate your expertise and availability to the site. Having an experienced shaper of your caliber, knowledge, love of the sport, and the ability to communicate the subtlies of shaping as it applies to function in simple terms is AWSOME! THANKYOU
Second, I had the incredible fortune of surfing with Simon and Gavin at G-Land in May 1995. Simon was shooting 'The Sparrow Landed with Friends". I just happened to be there. It was amazing surfing everyday with those guys they were light years ahead of my abilities; a real eye opener. I've been influenced and inspired ever since.
I purchased one of Gavins boards you shaped for G-Land featured in the video. It's 6'x22 1/2" with a 16 1/2" nose and a 15 1/2" small swallow tail. The board has a very slight "V" entry in the nose then goes flat to just in front of the fins where the V begins and carries through the tail. Of course it's a tri-fin. It had large glassed in side fins which projected beyond the rail margins. I found these a hazard and a problem when traveling so had had them replaced with FCS plugs.
The board was the one with the black outrageous black wings srayed on the deck seen in the video. It was his mid-sized board, his longest was a 6'6". I consider this board a gun by it's more pulled in nose tali and width by Aussie standards. I'm 5'9" and barely weigh 150lbs, so this is alot of board for me. The last time I rode it was a trip to the Mentawais, Indo. A fast down the line board. After seeing this topic I pulled it out and waiting for singificant swell to ride it again.
Two questions: 1. Why do most Aussie built tri-fins toe in further then boards shaped by other kneeboarding shapers; that is what effect does this have on performance? ( toe-in refers to the angling in of the forward fin base towards the nose)
2. I've never seen any other side fins like the ones you used on this board, was it experimental and how'd you think it worked?
THANKS Wayne

[WayneK]

Hey Bruce First, I would like to say WE really appreciate your expertise and availability to the site. Having an experienced shaper of your caliber, knowledge, love of the sport, and the ability to communicate the subtlies of shaping as it applies to function in simple terms is AWSOME! THANKYOU
Second, I had the incredible fortune of surfing with Simon and Gavin at G-Land in May 1995. Simon was shooting 'The Sparrow Landed with Friends". I just happened to be there. It was amazing surfing everyday with those guys they were light years ahead of my abilities; a real eye opener. I've been influenced and inspired ever since.
I purchased one of Gavins boards you shaped for G-Land featured in the video. It's 6'x22 1/2" with a 16 1/2" nose and a 15 1/2" small swallow tail. The board has a very slight "V" entry in the nose then goes flat to just in front of the fins where the V begins and carries through the tail. Of course it's a tri-fin. It had large glassed in side fins which projected beyond the rail margins. I found these a hazard and a problem when traveling so had had them replaced with FCS plugs.
The board was the one with the black outrageous black wings srayed on the deck seen in the video. It was his mid-sized board, his longest was a 6'6". I consider this board a gun by it's more pulled in nose tali and width by Aussie standards. I'm 5'9" and barely weigh 150lbs, so this is alot of board for me. The last time I rode it was a trip to the Mentawais, Indo. A fast down the line board. After seeing this topic I pulled it out and waiting for singificant swell to ride it again.
Two questions: 1. Why do most Aussie built tri-fins toe in further then boards shaped by other kneeboarding shapers; that is what effect does this have on performance? ( toe-in refers to the angling in of the forward fin base towards the nose)
2. I've never seen any other side fins like the ones you used on this board, was it experimental and how'd you think it worked?
THANKS Wayne

[hart]

Wayne,

Thanks heaps for your post. This site is a total trip for me. Not only is it my first internet experience, I too, am listening and learning.

And I can just imagine what it would've been like for you to meet Simon and Gav under such circumstances..both guys are such truely gifted surfers.

Gav spoke to me while he was there and asked if he could sell the six-o to you..I naturally said yes. The opportunity to share with an American was too good to ignore.

On reflection but, Gav should've been riding THAT board (and not his 6' 6" in the vid..see above post re G-land)..but such is life..as they say. His 6' 6" had too much rail for the conditions which really didn't get all that big. (Mind you..Simon snagged the odd six-footer but!).

Fin angle toe-in is subjective..and I'm aware Aussies have more angle than US surfers.

My angles are mid-range however..Albert's boards always had more toe..and other Aussie shapers have less.

The US style quads that I've seen have MINIMAL toe..and I think it is much to do with the rear placement of the fins to begin with..seemingly much further back than ours. And I see SO MUCH fin area on US boards that I'm sure the fins would start to push water if they had more toe. And considering that ALL the fins on a US quad have toe-in..well..

Our thrusters of course only have 2 fins that are toed..not all 4.

And further to that, I feel that the wide tails of the US boards that I see then require the amount of fin area that they receive.

Aussies seem to prefer less tail area, permitting a REDUCTION of fin area as a result.

Toe-in on fins promote rail entry and the feeling that the board WANTS to turn. It increases the angle of attack between the fin and the outline of the board. Toe-in will promote verticality think Simon..and quads with straighter fin angles will promote more parallel surfing with an emphasis on floater-type manoeuvres..think Baden Smith.

And Gavin's rail fins were purely a result of his power. On ALL Gav's thrusters, each fin was THE SAME SIZE..such was his power surfing. Whereas every other kneeboard that I build, will have a rear fin 30 - 60% SMALLER than the area in the rail fins.

After all that..I hope the board will give you many, many more waves.

Regards as always, from OZ.

Bruce.

[Beeline2.0]

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[willli]

and for those who can't make up their minds, and a test drive report on toe angles, there's this.. http://www.swivelfins.com.au/

[hart]

Beeline,

You're on the money again mate..and some standup shapers STILL use the 'straight-edge' approach to fin angle.

Some however, like Brett Warner, prefer them "opened out" a little.

Albert however also used the straight edge approach, but I just had to open the rail fins out.

But, my angles are toed in by 3/8" over a fin base of 4.5". Out of interest, I looked also at Brett's.

The actual amount of toe-in was almost identicle..except my rail fins are 17.5" apart and his are only 11"(?).

This is also the formula used by Farrer.. on all his boards (Shorties to semi-guns)..and they are of course, thrusters.

Maybe 3/8" of toe-in would be a little drastic for ALL four fins.

And Willli..I heard that a prosurfer was riding that system, solid eight feet Sth Coast..and the screw loosened during a bottom turn.

The inside fin 'twisted' and became useless. It ended up pointing straight to the beach.

The guy almost drowned because he said that he'd never fallen off that way before.. it took him by absolute surprise. And he never rode one again.

And I've not yet seen a set in the water..and besides, sometimes TOO much knowledge is not necessarily a good thing!

Regards to all from OZ.

[Steeno]

Hey Bruce
I have swivel fins on two of my stand up boards, the subtle difference in the toe-in is fun to play with, but more confusing than anything when standing there watching the waves, thinking should i tweak them a little further. I just found their sweet spot for each board and have left them that way. Maybe thats where they work well, for fine tuning each individual board, or maybe it was all just a bit to much for me. Anyway they work, but to what degree would be up to the individuals knowledge.

had good waves on the weekend, chayne simpson and myself, no one out and 6ft reeling onshore smashable lefts. heaps of fun, evrywhere else was half the size

[willli]

Given the fact that websites usually offer information that only promotes their product or ideas, what is interesting on the swivel site is the "surfing magazine" article on testing their system. I surf with a standup who used a more primitive system, mallet and glass. Seemed every next time i saw him he had knocked his fins off and glassed them back on. He originally used the string off the nose technique, but got really lost in his experimentation. I once asked him if he was keeping a record of all these changes. "No" he said. "I'll Know when I have it right"
The other interesting thing is FCS, swivel, speedfins, all companies based in OZ... like so much other innovation in our sport!
as to stuff that works without making sense, like toe-in, I just keep in mind that surfboards aren't boats, and the water is curved and moving forward at the same time that it isn't really moving at all unless its breaking.

[Cripple Crusader]

and for those who can't make up their minds, and a test drive report on toe angles, there's this.. http://www.swivelfins.com.au/

Just had a quick look at their website and had a good laugh at their claim of "This unique SWIVEL FIN SYSTEM is the only one of its kind in the world".
Just picked up a new board in SA and my shaper had put in www.4wfs.com (after the glasser had screwed up the speeedfins installation). They seem to be pretty interesting in what you can do with them (4 Way adjustments - swivel, forward & backward, splay (angle) & removal). While this is all too much for my little brain, I'm sure some of the design & tweek fundies on the board will find it interesting.

Unfortunately haven't had the opportunity to test the board yet!!! 6'3" and waiting for a smacking swell (or funds for an airticket to Indo/Hawaii!!!!)

[hart]

Steen,

DY was 4 foot on the weekend..so was Northy for the Final of the World Junior Titles..Noreast swell, with a Noreaster right behind it.

Good to get some waves but.

Where did you and Chayne surf?

Bruce.