Which U.S. shaper builds the "AUS fins fwd" style

[balzig777]

some may remember some may not, but Ive been shaping a few kneeboards again for those in the know, ready for kneeboard resurgance in numbers and new designs, I'll work your designs or anyone elses to put you in the pit ...........later bal

[budgie]

hi guys

I am a virgin to the forums so go easy on me

the forward fins position is not progressive if you dont turn from a forward position. Guys lke Simon Farrer and Dave Parkes and Baden Smith turn from their knees therefore ride further forward and NEED the fins further forward. Neil Lukes,Bruce Harts and Dave Parkes fins are generally 18in side and 9in rear

I turn from my feet and have had both Flashpoint and Neil Luke boards at a compromised 16in side and 8 in rear. I went back in time recently to 25 years ago when I used to ride 14in side and 7 in rear and found that the fin setting suited my style of turning a board.
I am now surfing a board with fin positions 13in for side fins and 6 1/2in for rear, I am also using an elastic flexible fin design by a red hot Western Australian kneeboarder Blair Micklejohn who designed the fins 25 years ago. The fins have lots of drive and the ability to let the surfer sit high on the face waves and have unbelievable powerband out of turns
Budgie

[K-man]

Sounds like what you're doing works for your style.What I don't get is I TURN FROM MY FEET...?What does that mean?
I can understand the 13/6.5,but where is the wide point?Widepoint back of center,to shorten the turn radius,pulled in nose so it don't catch? Widepoint center and fins further back,will not I believe,turn as easily as fins further forward...Unless you've got a secret board design we should know about...And in that case we're all ears?/eyes.....


cheers

Virgins are welcome,we do not discriminate......

[balzig777]

Sounds like what you're doing works for your style.What I don't get is I TURN FROM MY FEET...?What does that mean?
I can understand the 13/6.5,but where is the wide point?Widepoint back of center,to shorten the turn radius,pulled in nose so it don't catch? Widepoint center and fins further back,will not I believe,turn as easily as fins further forward...Unless you've got a secret board design we should know about...And in that case we're all ears?/eyes..... :lol:
You are correct in that forward fins move the rider forward on the board, so the outline would be widepoint centre or above which means alot of board behind the fins, sliding,dragging, holding up swim fins? Also the common thruster now has the back fins 2-1/2to 3" from the rail no cant and no toe into the nose also with a full foil. There is alot of stuff working against flow and speed there. But alot of designs work and the individual has to decide what works best for him. And you thought it would be easy.

cheers

Virgins are welcome,we do not discriminate...... :wink:

[frankfqr]

Welcome aboard budgie!!!!! Thats a different take on the fins back approach, and I'm glad to see someone else take a stab at describing that method of drive It's so hard to put into words something that comes natural---that being STYLE---you can't teach it. There is a devoted group of comrades here in the "states" that have chosen to remain or be cast off to the "underground" and, in my humble impression, somewhat labled as non-progressive for imbracing fins back. Glad to see your input!!

[Sparrow]

Hi Budgie,
good to hear from you mate but you could not have been more wrong with your comment about me turning from my knees.
Very wrong.

[ezak]

You gotta turn off your feet and turn on your mind

[Sparrow]

Captain
I can tell you that the majority of power generated in my turns is created through adjusting body weight & dispersing that energy via my lower legs & feet.
Combined with understanding the limits of your board, natural energy from the wave & utilising both these sources to give maximum drive & control.

Sounds bla bla bla

An analogy to compare & think about first up.
Take boxing as an example, to deliver maximum power in a punch is not just a process of throw & connection. Positioning, body weight adjustment, full extension- technique & timing are just some & all come together at that one point to delivery maximum result.
All this takes place in my surfing from the moment I get up I have already hunted out energy given from the wave & correct positioning on the
board. (positioning) Combine that captured energy that slingshots you down a wave to body weight adjustment in my case in a forward leaning motion and timing when that energy needs to be dispersed at the right time to generate the maximum thrust out of a turn (technique) via my lower legs which is pivoting the board over onto its rail more so from one foot depending on which direction.
I break it down to even more when I place my board over on a rail. There is a fine line when leaning the board over & combining the momentum, body weight adjustment with the angle of lean & dispersing of that energy at its maximum point in which the board can project forward with drive. This is a true art of surfing I believe when all this can be done subconsciously through a natural energy of feel & flow (Style). Anyone will tell you after pulling off a great turn how it flowed perfectly! maybe all those points came together to create that result? & even more important to be able to understand what it was that created that flow.
There are many other factors to mention but fundamentals are the most important to any surfer. Understanding the natural flow of power in a wave is a great skill & one which I feel very passionate about. Without sounding too strange! I feel like I have a blue print of a wave when im on it, knowing exactly were to source the natural energy & combining my own technique to create a balance. How do you get this? Experience? a 6th sense? I'm not sure but its clear as day to me when I surf.
The simple statement of surfing from your feet or knees is just not that straight forward. Its how the energy is dispersed. Upper body weight to lower body weight to through the thighs into the knees is all connected & some take it further to the feet like a steering wheel to the fins. Watch some footage of me surfing & watch the upper body movement & lower back through the hips & lower legs especially whilst doing a snap & see if you can see where the energy is being dispersed.
I hope this helps understand how I work but I am a strong believer in everyone is different & what works for some will not work for others. Technique is important to understand, where style is up to the individual & something that should stay that way.
I don't like reading people bickering about what works better fins forward(Aus) or fins back(USA) what ever works best for you, no one can give you an answer on what works best for you. Fin placements, board length, width, positioning of the knees on the deck whether it be forward, mid, back or right on the tail, together or apart all gives a different experience & all should be attempted to figure out what gives you the bigger rush & result that you are after. What is important is that there is more to riding a board than just catching a wave.
The fun is finding it out.

[Eric Carson]

Okay, everyone needs to cut, HIGHLITE, and paste Sparrow's post onto their boards!!
Imagine a baseball player swinging at a ball, using only his arms. A MLB starter can barely hit a ball past second base. Why, because the power comes from the hips and the torque.
What do good dancing, sex and kneeboarding have in common? they all start from the hip!!!

[Kev]

hi guys ... I am a virgin to the forums so go easy on me
... Budgie

greg ???
is that Greg ??

Hi
and welcome

great post from Simon
and to add to Eric's ' hips ' I think core strength has much to do with it
being able to hold good positioning once you have found it is not so easy for us less than fit old farts , trying to get back into the sport

[budgie]

Hi Kev yes it me

Hi Simon

Thanks for your informative and passionate reply
My comments were more to let the guy who asked the question about FORWARD FINS OZ STYLE... " that it is up to the individual and that riding a board with the fins forward works well for some but not for others."

Just because some guys in OZ are riding forward and the US guys are riding back does not make one way superior to the other, it is just different.

As for the turning FROM MY FEET as Eric Carsons reply says "it all comes from the hip" the power is what he is refering to, any form of Kung Fu or boxing or tennis etc use the power from the hips. When I rode Bruce Hart Boards and Neil Like Boards the fin placement and the flat spot on the bottom and the bottom Curves pushed me to surf further forward than where I normally surf, I persisted for a couple of years but then found after watching a video of myself that I was stiff and not as free flowing as I was years before. I moved back to a formula that WORKED FOR ME.

Surfing from the knees or from the feet is a small part of the overall equation as you have said. I didnt want to complicate things so kept it a simple ........

To say whether you would have fun on my boards, I cannot say, but the way you position yourself and manouvre a board that suits you, it MAY NOT work on my boards and be difficult for you to turn one of my boards and surf as hot as you do.

In other words DIFFERENT

To quote you Simon and what you say shows in your surfing.

Quote "Understanding the natural flow of power in a wave is a great skill & one which I feel very passionate about. Without sounding too strange! I feel like I have a blue print of a wave when im on it, knowing exactly were to source the natural energy & combining my own technique to create a balance. How do you get this? Experience? a 6th sense? I'm not sure but its clear as day to me when I surf. "

YOUR WAVE KNOWLEDGE IS GOD LIKE

I agree with everything you have said Simon thanks again for the detailed response

Budgie

[BillL]

Nice post Simon,
You eloquently articulated the 100 things that are going through your mind and body while on a wave. It takes a high state of awareness to be cogniscent of all the feedback that you're getting from the energy of the wave and board and then harnessing it into your own individual expression. I think that's why surfing is such a compelling sport/ addiction!

[Tom Linn]

I would like to correct a common misconception regarding board position. I have over fifiteen kneeboards from many of the best kneeboard shapers on the planet (I know- it is a disease this kneeboard collection thing). I have fin back boards from the 80's and the latest fin forward designs from Oz and everything in between. For design pruposes I wanted to know where and how my knees find the "sweet spot" on the board. After studying the indents in all of my boards and the indents of other kneelos I admire I came to the following conclusion- PLACEMENT ON THE BOARD OCCURS SUCH THAT THE TOP OF YOUR FEET LOCATE DIRECTLY ABOVE THE FIN CENTER. This is true for quads, tris, twins, five-fins regardless of who the shaper is. This was true on every board I checked and supports Simon's statement that turns center around the feet and lower leg not the knee. I can predict to within an inch of where my knee will land based on the measurement of the distance from my foot to my knee and finding that distance from the fin center (center of power for the fin cluster). This is very useful knowledge for determing kneepad placement and playing with fin positioning.

One more thing, many if not most of the current kneelo shapers in the US use a fin forward design. This idea that only the Aussies make fin forward boards is very dated and no longer true. We can still thank the Aussies for the originating and refining the design however.

[cake]

If I am hearing you right, on a trifin setup find the center of the front of the front fins and the back of the rear fin, then from that center measure up the length of heel to knee.

[frankfqr]

Truly excelent work Tom L. Sounds like you've got the resources to derive at the definition of a known gray area. With out running to the garage to examine my rides, I can visualize the knee dents to be as you describe. Driving off the feet explains the predictable, dreaded, rear upper leg cramp. For your next assignment , pull the calipers and straight edge for rocker and thickness alignment to the formula . Seriously--Thanx for that post!!!