Carbon Fibre and Kevlar

[budgie]

Hey thanks Red and Rmckee


just the sort of info I am after

I just love this forum stuff

and thanks Waka for the photos at Bendalong, I got them via Eric, via Blair from WA

and thanks for the webpage Kev

Budgie

[budgie]

Thanks again RmcKnee

Just read the whole 50 odd pages of the Gurit composites and now feel enlightened by the that knowledge.


If anyone is interested in carbon fibre or just the normal method of surfboard manufacture, and makes you realise how inferior the processes and some of the materials used together are just not up to it

Hope that answered your question too Red

Budgie

[RMcKnee]

Budgie,
Glad the SP stuff was of interest, however, I don't want you or anyone else to get the wrong idea.


I posted the link to SP because I thought it might be of interest to anyone wondering about "exotic" laminating systems. It was not meant in any way as a criticism of anyone's local shaper or the surfboard industry at large. This stuff (exotic composites) has been around for a long time. Many board builders have already researched the area in detail and decided against pursuing that path for various reasons. One reason the stuff has not taken off is that people who buy boards are pretty conservative. (Again, this is not a criticism, just an observation.) Another reason is cost. Given that the great board-buying public, (OK, not most kneelos, but search your conscience before taking umbrage), will more often than not go to the cheapest manufacturer, it's not hard to understand why the price of materials is a major issue for board-builders, and even more so for specialist (ie, kneelo) builders. Exotic laminates generally increase the labour element in the build process, which also adds to cost.

I have seen guys umming and ahhing in Parkesy's showroom over a custom board for a basic price of $650 or $750 because they regard it as too expensive. I know that every other shaper has similar stories. Really, in what other field of sport can you go out and buy state of the art equipment made by the hands of a master craftsman for under a thousand bucks? What kind of premium would a golfer be prepared to pay for a putter made by Tiger Woods, (assuming he had the skill to make one)

Most shapers don't make a lot of money from their craft. If I could, I'd order a new board every month just to support those guys. They deserve our support. They have earned it.

The standard polyurethane/glass/polyester surfboard has specific properties that make it work in a particular way. Certain weaknesses inherent in the materials contribute to those properties; thus ANY board may be regarded as a trade-off of sorts. This trade may translate to lively performance, but at the cost of longevity, or conversely, longevity at the cost of performance. Yer pays yer money and yer takes yer choice.

I surfed one of my "lo-tech" boards today on a nice point break. It went well, did everything I asked of it, felt light, responsive and lively. It paddled well, got me in the barrel and out again several times and was comfy to lie and sit on. When it's worn out or when I break it, I'll go see Parkesy and get another one made and I'll be happy to pay him for it. And life goes on.

Bottom line is this. If you wanna be a surfer, ya gotta surf. If ya surf, ya need boards. Good boards are made by good craftsmen. Good craftsmen are made over time...
AND THEY NEED OUR SUPPORT.

And I'll step off the box now...

[budgie]

Dear Mr RMcKnee

True words spoken (written)

My first brand new board in 1979 was $90,

Petrol, 2 years later was 17c per litre and my new board was $200

If 27 years later petrol is $1.70 a litre which it was last month,

surfboards should be 10 times $200 which equals $2000,

yet some miserable bastards screw the shaper and glasser and sander and pay only $350 to $500

In relative terms, that is why exploring these technologies isnt really expensive if you are getting a board for under $2000

Yes, the frequency of changing over the flawed standard foam and polyester resin and glass fibre surfboard is the only thing giving surfboard manufactures money in the pocket.

Budgie

ps amazing info in your link, really put everything in perspective

[Kev]

... and thanks for the webpage Kev ...

err yeah
sorry for the delay
flying by remote cos I'm in QLD at my parents place and don't have many of the normal tools
so I'm on the free downloads and the CD magazine disks

Greg sent me two pictures so I scaled them to 3 sizes for convenience
and so as not to crowd the forum with mega wide thingies
http://www.diyfactory.com/surf/images/g ... n_6_03.jpg
you smart pants out there will find the other pictures
obvously _01 and _02 are the larger sizes
...
Blair with an old board (I think) ... and Greg's current rear end

free plug for Stump ... I think he prepared Greg's ideas into that board on the right
... Greg !! ... correct me if I wrong

still trying to work out Greg's video file he sent

[budgie]

Hi

Just to deviate from the thread

The photos are of Blair Micklejohn a Kneelo who started on his homemade 4ft something plywood kneeboards and has designed some crazy functional boards over the years. This one is about 6 years old and has a square nose, diamond tail 3in thick with 1 1/2 kneewells in the deck very old style mal rails and bottom and his crazy flex fins which he been using for nearly 3 decades.

The other photo of my board is one of the PROFESSOR chimed rail boards that the computer stuffed whilst shaping. I was waiting a long time for a stringerless blank that I couldnt get so I told the PROFESSOR to finish it for me and I will try Blairs fins again ( I tried them in fin boxes and had only 3 waves at Lefthanders WA before they snapped).

Anyway I always have remembered the drive that these fins generate and phoned Blair for the specs.

What I find incredible is the holding power these fins have and how high on the waves face you can sit, but best of all is the drive and power of the release of a turn.

I love these fins and am yet to go back to normal fins to verify how well they work or how bad they are. But if I am getting a mould made and am going to try them in FCS plugs there must be something in it.

Despite being from the past these fins are actually from the Future

Budgie

[RMcKnee]

Hey Budgie, far from deviation mate, your board is what this thread is all about, innit? Interesting designs in both photos. Are you able to give us a plan view and a profile shot + dimensions? I'm sure there are a few others in cyber space who'd also love to have more detail.

You said

one of the PROFESSOR chimed rail boards that the computer stuffed whilst shaping

God's way of letting us know that we still need that guy covered in white dust in the shaping bay. No amount of megabytes can take the place of twenty five years experience.
And

Despite being from the past these fins are actually from the Future

Check this out...
http://www.futuresfins.com/pick-fins.ph ... ght=medium...spooky

I know their hatchet fins are only similar to yours, but I reckon Futures make a good strong box, I love the way the fins feel like their glassed in, they're beautifully foiled on both sides, plus their not bullsh*tting about their flex stuff. I've tried a few different fin systems recently and rate FCS , Futures
Just a thought, but what do you know about the way your fins were made? (The ones that broke after 3 waves). As you know, laminate strength really depends on resin/glass ratio. Odd as it may sound, the more resin you get out of the laminate, (to a point), the stronger that laminate will be, because the strength comes from the reinforcing material (glass) while the resin is only there (primarily) to hold it together. Poylyester is a poor adhesive and, having limited flexion strength, is relatively brittle. A resin rich fin lay-up will always be prone to busting when flexed.

[Kev]

... No amount of megabytes can take the place of twenty five years experience ...

but when that fellow with years of experience works and learns the machine ... just as he might a simple sander
you never know what the results will be. It's just another power tool.
Not saying that one board will be better
but the chance of making a second board the same and now incremental changes are more possible.
Computer Modelling and CAD and Robotics are in everyday use in other industries and so too surf board making.

The art will be for the shaper to learn how to best use the technology available and at what cost benefit.

Side note.
18 months ago when I spoke to Dave about Shape3d and APS3000 he was completely not interested but recently he will have a short conversation. As he points out ... even IF the board were to come out right (which they don't - I think this can be improved) ... the final sanding and shape POST glassing can still change things.

Fins
Rainbow have a cutaway fin
not nearly as cut as Greg's fins above
and Lockbox not FCS

interesting non the less

I think someone mentioned ( Greg ? ) that two FCS plug probably won't be enough strength.
by having a three plug length at the base for more physical strength
that will sit above the board surface
... may change the way the fin works in the water.

Futures can hide there extra strength below the glass

[RMcKnee]

Yeah, Kev, I don't wanna sound like a Luddite, but I guess I am one. Just a personal opinion, but I think we tend to be too eager to hand our skills over to machines, and I like the ART in board design/construction. DP is 110% right in what he says about the shortcomings of the CAD/CNC systems, and I will always rate a shaper who can produce a board using handtools over one who needs a computer. Anyway, this should be on it's own thread I reckon. One called Roy Batty vs Richard Brewer.

[Bob]

To change direction, back in the 80's we used to put kevlar on the decks of our boards under the pads. No delaminating from the knee placement.

No natural knee wells made over time though, either.

Only heard of one board over ten years snapped right at the kevlar line when its owner threw it away on a paddle out.

I am 6'5' and 250lbs. so it worked well for me. Only cost about $20 more at the time.

Glassers hated the stuff and the brand new board came with an ugly brown patch on the deck but once the pad was on, you couldn't see it.

Seemed to work but probably not necessary unless youy ride a board for twenty years.

[RMcKnee]

Budgie said

but best of all is the drive and power of the release of a turn.

Looking at the pics, it's obvious the drive would be from the long base. Seems to me the best way to attach these fins would be A) glass on or B) fin box at least the length of the fin base, (like Futures, Lokbox etc.)
Budgie, going back to one of your earlier posts, you mentioned there would only be a few layers of carbon in the fins you're planning to make. Given the relationship between resin and reinforcing material in the laminate, don't you feel you might be a little light on? If you look at a slab fin (full flex) you'll see there are at least 15 layers of glass each side of c/l. You can tell that the fin panel was subjected to considerable pressure immediately post lay-up because so much resin's been squeezed out the laminate looks almost "dry". If your busted fin laminate doesn't have many layers and little resin, I'd feel sure that's the root of your fin breakage problems.

Bob,
BTW, kevlar was the next experimental material on the agenda for me after the carbon board mentioned some time back. Various things conspired to prevent research. Probably will try it for the next board, if damned "responsibilities" ever allow another one. I'm thinking PU/kevlar/epoxy/some sort of clear coating or possibly paint. Shame the kids have left home now; means I can't sell one to pay for the board!

[budgie]

So many things to respond to.......

1. I think and it is only my opinion, that a shaper needs a CAD and a CAD needs a shaper. Guys who scan boards and get a CLONE are kidding themselves if they dont have the handshaping skills and the EYE, well they deserve what they get if they dont . The PROFESSOR is a skilled craftsman and builds a board from start to finish, except now his favourite and my favourite shapes can be honed, we hope. There is still margin for error and my board in the photo is proof, it is a mistake, it looks ugly in the tail, but in my 30+ years as a kneelo a board has never gone so well from wave numero uno.

2. The fins made a quarter of a century ago did not have the strength in the base and the flex snapped them, other than that I know nothing.

3.Nothing like FUTURE fins because they have just bastardised a normal fin slightly andadded a few straight bits, whereas Blair has designed straight parts in it and along with the chimed rails this bird has similar principals and properties a STEALTH bomber has. FUTURE but too scared to be totally out there.

4. Kevlar enhanced Carbon fibre is gold and black and that is what my new moulded fins will be FLEX + STRENGTH = POWER

5. Most guys have FSC and I will follow that vain

Budgie

[crippler]

Hi guys just spotted this interesting discussion
shaping machines in my opinion and the opinion of everyshaper i know is the greatest single advancement in surfboards since cuttin the nose of old mals and making them 6 foot.sure the early ones were crude and many are still being used but the real ones with a technician worth his salt are nothing short of amazing sure i believe we do need those guys covered in dust but only if your still experimenting with your equipement.If you`ve done progressive experiment and are happy your close to what you want they are simply irreplacable for the small modification`s. Don`t believe everything you hear and read they really can reproduce identical boards i`ve had 8 of the same board and there great, something that definately can`t be done by hand

[Marky vee]

epoxy benefits from a raised temperature postcure, how much depends on the resin system used. Generally a stronger glue than polyester, which tends towards the 'brittle' particularly after exposure to uv.
Kevlar would be ok in a moulded fin, you cannot sand it without it fluffing up, so you cannot hand foil a fin with any kevlar in it. Don't even try. Glass with polyester or epoxy is the easiest and best way of making 'one off' fins for a surfboard, epoxy will give a softer flex to the fins.
Add some carbon to stiffen the fins in conjuction with the glass. Foam core will allow you to make very light fins but will take more time to learn the ins and outs.
Lokbox, futures probox and any 'box' system will be vastly stronger than FCS
Hope this helps