I'm in Love

What works & what doesn't and in what type of conditions. Got a "secret" only you and your shaper know???? Post it here... we can keep it quiet ;-)

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Headwax.
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I'm in Love

Post by Headwax. »

Warning: Incoherent Ramblings Ahead.

Image

New board I got from Parkes a few months ago. Been meaning to make a post about it, because it's the best board I've ever had ............ And that’s saying something.:)

Firstly its another big concave board- this one is 15 mill at its max depth. The concave is nose to tail.

A little history: I've been riding boards with large concaves for quite a few years, first with fishes and now (for the last two boards at least) with rounded pins. Half the boards have been tris, the rest quads. And going farther back than that, my first large concave board was made by Steve Artis in circa 1975 from HB.

With the concaves I'm riding now they go extremely fast, but they are edgy, which means you need to pay attention when you are riding them. But the rewards, for me at least, have been well worthwhile.

The boards are edgy because 1: the rider has to be in tune with the board more so than normal. 2) the shape has to be perfect to keep the rail line out of the water.

There's no forgiveness if the board is too wide near the nose or the rocker rail line/ rail profile is a bit out. To illustrate: Consider the exact opposite is a complete veed bottom design which lifts the rail line higher to make sure it's far out of the water. But you lose speed, apparent planing area and the ability to ride as high in the wave (the vee bleeds water off the edge of the rail). But a vee'd board gives you an easy ride and allows the shaper more leeway if his rocker, rails etc are a little bit out.

Why are concaves good?

Easy….

Educated guess (via Dunc originally I think) they go fast, courtesy of less push from the rocker. Especially the reduced rocker on the stringer line. In low power situations the boards have a tendency to keep 'running' longer than you expect them too. It's an odd feeling because just when you expect the board to die cause the wave is gutless and you're stuck behind the lip, the board will keep cruising - thanks I imagine to the reduced friction.

Concaves want to plane between turns, it's their natural state. And the more they plane, the faster you go. This planing also helps you project out of a turn .

But what's so good about a big concave as compared to a ‘normal‘ concave?


Well traditionally concaves have always had the reputation of sucking onto the face, of wanting to track etc. I've heard mention once that some that bog down. I imagine part of this reputation comes from two places 1) standup boards 2) and from the most common concaves that people use - 4mm? Single to double etc.

The thing about kneeboards is that they are so wide - relative to a standup board. I think that makes a huge difference in the way you can plan a kneeboards bottom contours.

Because of the width of a kneeboard given the correct depth of concave you'll find that the board will be operating much like a catarmaran in some parts of the wave. At this point there isn't any meniscus joining the two panels and consequently a lot of the "sucking" onto the face that people attribute to concaves isn't so apparent with these boards..

The interstitial spaces (some of the time) are being filled with air. In my old fishes, when you flicked off and let the board run slowly over the back of the wave, you could hear the trapped air gurgling out. Same when you came up after a duck dive - the air would be trapped under the board and come out in huge bubbles.

Apart from the concave, what's special about this board?

Well, we've taken as much of the main rocker out as possible and instead moved the curves over to the planshape.

If you look carefully at the rocker you'll see that it's playing with the concept of a 'board within a board' - meaning there are two boards here. The board that sits in the water and the part of the board that is just there for emergencies - which is the nose lift. For those who lived in Sydney in the seventies you might remember the nose lift on summer cloud boards? Rumour had it that the shaper used to pile bricks on the blank to get more nose lift.

So this new board of mine is a bit of a nod to those days - without the bricks. The extra nose lift comes in handy for late takoffs - but stays out of contact with the water the rest of the time. So though the board is really five eight, in some ways you could be riding a five five.

In most ways it's an extrapolation from the last board david made me - which was for small waves and had double flyers/wings and quite square floaty rails in the tail. That board was excellent upto six foot oddly - yet the tail rails and flyers made the rails pop on big cutties. (remember it was a board made for two foot and under.

So with the new board we've taken out the flyers and given it easier to bury rails, but kept the concept of very flat rocker and lots of planshape curve.

One other thing which has made a big difference is keeping as much foam in the blank as possible. Having that 15 mill concave on the bottom takes a lot of foam out of the blank and you lose a corresponding amount of flotation (my first fishes with large concaves were about 2 and a bit inches thick under the chest - which was great for duckdiving, but lousy for paddling.

So this board with its flat rocker and very flat stringer line (courtesy of the concave) plus a small amount of extra foam has given me aboard that paddles super early into a wave - and it's only 5 foot 8!



Random observations:

Interestingly if you stick your head under the water and push the board round you'll find packets of bubbles about eight inches wide travelling from nose to tail and off the end. Of course this doesn't prove that happens when you are riding it ...

If you are going to make one for yourself watch the rail fifteen inches from the nose. This will be the unsweet spot if your rail line is out.

Tris and Quads: When I changed my first quad to a tri for a while I noticed there was a definite feeling of running on the inside panel when you were doing bottom turns - it was a good feeling but weird. Exactly like skiing on one ski.

My style? Its probably relevant: I ride from the tail kneeling very high and leaning forward to bury the rail on my quads. I also ride forehand/backhand (my backhand is crap) With the latest board I have discovered the advantages of leaning out as well- leaning out helps keep the rail out of the water and build up more body torque..

Riding them? It doesn't hurt to drive them hard, so if you were bought up in the single fine era it's something you'll appreciate. That said they are as loose as a normal board - if they are too tight, then it's probably your fin position or fin rake, rather than the concave.

Downsides? Ribbed waves, waves with steps etc are a pain in the backside. Lucky I don’t get to ride them much :0

Thanks for reading...

Last random observation: These ramblings are my observations after 35 years of kneeboarding - but they aren't necessarily right :)

Cheers headwax

(I had some spare time this afternoon - can't you tell?)

edited 27th november: took out a line
Last edited by Headwax. on Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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barry
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sweet

Post by barry »

Thanks HeadWax
Thats a good read. I Appreciate the way you provided heaps of detail
along with your experience and feel of the board, both current and past.
Also the angle of the pics give a great visual to the details of the board.
Thanks for sharing 8)
This should be the start of a great thread :idea:
Cheers,
Barry
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Post by weirdo »

NICE one HW.... looks nice...
So concave right through it is the go...not Vee at the end... Do you think the big concave suits the quad setup?? What fin setup do you have on that...?

Thanks for posting!

Cheers

W
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concave

Post by frankfqr »

Had her "a few months" and your in love!!!!!! Good work Mr. Wax. 8) 8) 8) . Describe pics. please---appears as if no or little tail lift (rocker), flat? And looks straight and tight on the fin cluster? No cant or toe? What kind of waves is she built for? I do like the rails very much :!: :!: :!: Thanks for the post.
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Post by Doc Turbo »

Damn sexy looking board you got there....
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Headwax.
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Post by Headwax. »

Thanks very much Barry :) It's fun working with something for a while and asking yourself, why does it do certain things and not others? I've been addicted to concaves after a bunch of standup surfers came up and checked out my Hot Buttered in 75, to see why it went so well.... Must be the egoist in me. Heh :) And

then when I first saw Baden Smith surf with his deep concaves, I realised it was time to go back and revisit them.

Pleasure Weirdo

the fins are all glass cause I'm seeking that quad boost you get when the fins let their flex out halfway during the turn. Still searching for the ideal front fin though.

Best flex I had was from a mark richards FCS twin fin (glass) but they are too big for the font 0f my quads. I use a box in the front and fcs in the back - because

the front fin, being larger, is the one that needs to be fine tuned if necessary.

The quads are good with the big concave. You're not geting any cavitation around the fins with air etc because they are up on the planing "panels". Then again, I

don't think you get that with singles or tris either :)

Vee in the tail? That was always the tradition when I was growing up. That and veeed noses. I think it's because shapers didn't have the knowledge that they do

now as far as refinement of the rocker. The vees kept you double safe while keeping a straighter stringer line and a higher rail rocker outline - so if your rocker was

way out you still wouldn't get rail catch. But I believe you bleed power off the rails when you place a vee on the tail. Also I guess you need to consider it might

have been a footsurfer single fin thing originally where you could stamp over the fin with your backfoot and really concentrate on a small area of the bottom

contour - and the single fin right down on the tail counteracted the power bleed off the rails.

I know Webber/GregLoehr (?) now doesn't believe in concaves off the tail because it disturbs the water flow but hey, he's not talking kneeboards... well maybe not.

Hi Frankfqr. How are your magic boards going? :)

Yes, there's hardly anytail rocker which is great for speed. We have a kneelo here called greg the keg who makes his own boards in Narrabeen and basically he has

no rocker in the last half (?????) of his board. He is the fastest kneelo I've seen. As far as the toe in, I think it's David's normal toe in, pointed not quite at the nose.

The cant is more than it looks in the pictures, I think the concave gives an optical illusion and makes the fins look straighter than normal. The fin seperation I am

riding has the fins slightly more forward than this (1.25 cms?) Baden once told me that the best distance between your quad fins is about the width of your wrist.

And I think he's right :) (He doesn't let slip a lot)

Waves are basic beach break stuff that I ride. Upto eight foot which is my max as I grow older (wiser). It needs a little more length for the eight foot waves I think.

Had it out in trecherous three foot closeout double suck beach break a few days ago and it flew- cause you can get into the waves so quickly !

DOc Turbo:. thanks, you have good taste :) Mind you I've stopped sleeping with it/her because the glass fins are too sharp. I've given ither the double bed

all to itself/herself and I now sleep on the lounge (I keep the leggie on though...... just in case.)

cheers for now

headwax

BTW interesting read here about Webber and Herring and rocker and concave. But I see he went with a banana concave in the end, though it says in the beginning it was a flat rockered board? http://www.theboardshop.co.nz/stories/storyReader$1135
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Post by analbirth »

WOW
once you've had black you'll never go back!!!
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Post by budgie »

Hi Mr Headwax

amazing commentary with excellent detail.

my nose to tail concave is getting better and better.

I rode an old trifin dunger converted to 4 fin last week and man it goes, I only ever rode one 4 fin with high velocity fins and it was a dog.

MJ built this 4 fin and I have nicknamed it the HOG as it loves its snout in the trough and you can get every single wave you want and you can catch waves never dreamed of on a trifin.

Thanx MJ

I will measure my concave depth and re post soon with pics, but not with that amazing view
Last edited by budgie on Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Headwax. »

thanks anal birth and budgie ;)

Budgie, glad you are getting used to the board!! Nice to have light at the end of the barrel er I mean tunnel. :)

Those h2 fins look as if they'd never work as they are too pivotal (in my humble opinion). Great for speed racing maybe, or sticking on AA rockets, but maybe not for boards that you want to turn in nice powerful arcs. Mind you I get a lot of 'straighthanders" heh.

Ahh the view, I was very very very lucky/ Right place righ time I must have worked very hard when I was young, but I can't remember. It was so long ago...

:)

Here's a more intelliegent view of the board so it's easier to imagine how the concave sits over the water... You can also see how the concave adds more planing area because of its curvature. Hard to imagine this on a narrower board.

Image
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Post by RMcKnee »

Hey Headwax, congratulations on a beautiful board, a very well-constructed post and an enviable view.

This last view of your bottom (sic) reminds me more than anything of two pretty extreme asymmetric hulls. Any thoughts?
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Post by KNEELOMATIC »

HEADWAX YOUR BOARD HAS ALL THE DESIGN TIPS OF A F1 CAR SPEED, SPEED,SPEED FANTASTIC BOARD AND I NOTICED YOUR SPRAY IS THE SAME AS YOUR LAST ONE AWSOME HAVE FUN :D
DO ALL THE GOOD YOU CAN, BY ALL THE MEANS
YOU CAN, IN ALL THE WAYS YOU CAN,IN ALL THE PLACES YOU CAN, AT ALL THE TIMES YOU CAN, TO ALL THE PEOPLE YOU CAN, AS LONG AS EVER YOU CAN.
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Post by budgie »

measured my little 10mm concave, compared to your 15mm concave


mmm concave envy


hahahahaha
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Post by budgie »

Sorry dont know how to paste pics here

some links to my new board and a comparison photo between old and new

album_showpage.php?pic_id=22488
album_showpage.php?pic_id=22489
album_showpage.php?pic_id=22490
album_showpage.php?pic_id=22491
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Post by Headwax. »

Kneelomatic thanks :) You are very observant about the spray! Came out of a psycholgy textbook I had at uni and since 1982 it's morphed into something like sand patterns that water makes at low tide.

Mr RMcknee wrote
This last view of your bottom (sic) reminds me more than anything of two pretty extreme asymmetric hulls. Any thoughts?
Well, I'm blushing :) No but that's an interesting question. I thought about the different variations when I was at work today, like having two perfectly flat hulls with a sharp edged cutout ... Albert Whiteman made me a boardin the eighties with a sharp edged cutout panel in the belly of the board and in the tail and it ripped but in cutties it would lose it without any warning and start to hydroplane on the tail! I reckon it was because of the sharp edges in the tail panel

[albumimg]593[/albumimg]

So maybe it's better to have gradual curves ? Stops water doing strange things in the dead spots. It's nice to have the board tell the water what to do rather then have the water guess :)

On the new board the assymetric hull shape gives an interesting thing ....ls is if you put a straight edge from about fifteen inches down from the nose and run it between the fins on the other side of the board - the bottom of board is straight. The stringer concave cuts out the hump that you would normally get. So I think the assymetry serves a purpose. It's


It explains why the board accelrates so well out of turns I think. Because there's a point just when you start your turn where it changes gear.
Last edited by Headwax. on Fri Oct 30, 2009 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Headwax. »

Hi Budgie, concave envy? Now that's funny.

The board looks great. Very interesting the square rails on the tail. Should give good release top and bottom. If you're ever in Newcastle I'd be privledged if I could have a ride !

Here are the pics.

[albumimg]22488[/albumimg]
[albumimg]22489[/albumimg]
[albumimg]22490[/albumimg]
[albumimg]22491[/albumimg]

You copy the [ albumimg]22488[ /albumimg] stuff at the bottom of your pic and just stick it in the post.

Looking forward to further reports on progress.

cheers
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