I've been very fortunate to have a quiver of outstanding boards, sometimes I take for granted all the details put into my Blast boards. I have a general question for tail designs... what does a fish do, or what are the advantages to that design? What are the advantages or disadvantages to a round pin or squash? Which designs are better for turning off the top? Any insight on what each tail does is appreciated.
Mahalo.
fish-squash-round pin
Moderator: Moderator
I think it depends as much on your surfing style as anything. I went from Cleary's single fin double wing swallow of the late 70's to a double wing squash thruster in the 80's to a quad double wing squash from the late 80's on, with several bottom contours & rockers mixed in each of the templates.
I ran a few fish earlier(twins) when I started looking to make a tansition. They were very fast down the line. Very fast. I took the third one, which wasn't bad, and went with shaper's suggestion I try the same template on a squash, and it loosened up without losing too much speed. I rode that board for probably three four years until it snapped in half in the middle of a bottom turn on a winter swell at Newport Pier. The thing came up and hit me in the face. After that. I played with the bottoms & templates, got my speed back, and now I have a relatively fast board I can snap around on a steep face.
Bottom line with a squash is that you loose a little speed & gain the ability to change direction quicker, depending on how much you pull in the last 18" of the tail (why I still like the double wings, which help make that transition smoother), along with how squared off or rounded your tail is. I've found a little kick in the last 3" of tail also loosens the board quite a bit without costing you speed when you need it. The edge on the rail can make or break the whole thing too.
I had one rounded pin, and I didn't stick with it very long. I've always had at least two go-to boards for traveling. For me, a rounded pin is just too loose on the turns. I've watched Barry destroy it with one. That got me to pull in the tail and round the quash to almost a round squash like tail. I keep mixing all this up to see what works I travel with two double wing squash with slight mods between them. I have three great boards right now, and its enough.
Last & most important; it depends on your surf style more than anything else. The guy I ride with can't ride my boards, and I can't ride his. You need to work out what fits you & fine tune it over four or five seasons and then move forward with that, fine tuning as you go. You need a shaper you trust to do that.
I ran a few fish earlier(twins) when I started looking to make a tansition. They were very fast down the line. Very fast. I took the third one, which wasn't bad, and went with shaper's suggestion I try the same template on a squash, and it loosened up without losing too much speed. I rode that board for probably three four years until it snapped in half in the middle of a bottom turn on a winter swell at Newport Pier. The thing came up and hit me in the face. After that. I played with the bottoms & templates, got my speed back, and now I have a relatively fast board I can snap around on a steep face.
Bottom line with a squash is that you loose a little speed & gain the ability to change direction quicker, depending on how much you pull in the last 18" of the tail (why I still like the double wings, which help make that transition smoother), along with how squared off or rounded your tail is. I've found a little kick in the last 3" of tail also loosens the board quite a bit without costing you speed when you need it. The edge on the rail can make or break the whole thing too.
I had one rounded pin, and I didn't stick with it very long. I've always had at least two go-to boards for traveling. For me, a rounded pin is just too loose on the turns. I've watched Barry destroy it with one. That got me to pull in the tail and round the quash to almost a round squash like tail. I keep mixing all this up to see what works I travel with two double wing squash with slight mods between them. I have three great boards right now, and its enough.
Last & most important; it depends on your surf style more than anything else. The guy I ride with can't ride my boards, and I can't ride his. You need to work out what fits you & fine tune it over four or five seasons and then move forward with that, fine tuning as you go. You need a shaper you trust to do that.
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norm
- Local (More than 25 post)
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- Location: Mililani, Hawaii
Thanks sarj for the insight on the designs you've rode. The boards that I have are dialed in when I get to ride waves with a face and some speed, maybe it's midlife surfing crisis when I want to experiment, even though I got some great boards. I can read up on designs for standup surfers, but it's good to get information from kneeboarders. Your comment on surf style is a good one to think about. I'll have a few beers and loosen up the brain cells.
Aloha,
Aloha,
norm
hello Norm
ahh this is a kettle of fish
a few years ago you would got a zillion answers
can I rave on? sorry this is unedited
hmm.... one idea of a board shape is to get it to fit in the wave
without rail catch ,
or nose dive
but you also need it to have planing area and
also not much friction or drag
some of these things when taken to extreme are mutually exclusive
so a wide tail like a fish will give you planing area for speed
but it wont fit in the wave so well as far as the plans shape goes
because of lack of planshape curve
so you need to put in more rocker to stop nose dive/ rail catch
but the rocker will push water compared to a no rocker board and reduce your speed
also because the fish tail will probably have a wider nose, this combined with the increased rocker gives even more drag
so what you gain in planing area you lose i n rocker push
unless you keep the fish as a twinnie so it won't go on its rail so much and that
means you won't have rail catch and you can keep the rocker fairly flat
but it will still have a tendency to nose catch in a steep pocket if you keep the rocker minimal
the fish tail is supposed to be like two pin tails in a way as far as burying each half of the tail
also there is some theory about rail to rail transfer which I don't know about
but it supposedly guides the water from one rail to the other?
you can see it in photos sometimes
in summary so if you were getting a fish tail then you might consider a twinnie or a quad so you don;'t have to rev up the rocker or egg down the rails to make them soft
a pintail on the other hand could be the exact opposite as
it means you can have more planshape curve and therefore need less rocker
for it to fit in the wave properly
it also gives less planing area therefore you have less "plane"
but the reduiced rocker means you get more "glide" - (as you push less water).
so you lose speed from planing area but gain speed because of less rocker push
you can ride this as twinne quad tri etc without any drawbacks.
but I guess the tradional way is with a fin in the back - ie trifin
with pintails
in barrels the tail will fit in the pocket better
but you won't be able to plane out onto the shoulder as much as you might on a fat fish
so you have at tendency to surf in the pocket more
luckily a pintail has got more chance of going vertical
depending on where you put the wide point
wide point in the centre means less rail engaged at the back
means snappier turns off the bottom
and off the top
but less ability to do a powerful roundhouse cutback
courtesy of the reduced amount of rail wetted at the nose in the initial part of the cutty
I guess a square tail will fall somewhere in the middle.
I have pintails and fish(s)
I have ridden them as tris and quads
my fish are made t o go on the r ail in most cases so have slightly more rocker
that makes them more forgiving
the pintails have fairly flat rocker and go faster but need more attention from the rider
the fishtails are superb in peaky conditions that run into deep water but still have a shoulder to do s turns on
the pintails are great for down the line and can wind up speed really well
I also have two fish which are trifins with very slight rocker and really hard down squarish rails and
they go super fast but are so hard to ride without catching a rail they take all the enjoyment out of surfing
they were made by a standup shaper in about 2000
all of my boards have big concaves which flatten out the stringer line
but in the past I have ridden nose vee to single concave to double concave off the tail with a vee in the middle of the double concave - and the same characteristics seem to apply
(By the way - a vee in the tail seems to make foam ball riding easier)
did I answere any of your questions?
ahh this is a kettle of fish
a few years ago you would got a zillion answers
can I rave on? sorry this is unedited
hmm.... one idea of a board shape is to get it to fit in the wave
without rail catch ,
or nose dive
but you also need it to have planing area and
also not much friction or drag
some of these things when taken to extreme are mutually exclusive
so a wide tail like a fish will give you planing area for speed
but it wont fit in the wave so well as far as the plans shape goes
because of lack of planshape curve
so you need to put in more rocker to stop nose dive/ rail catch
but the rocker will push water compared to a no rocker board and reduce your speed
also because the fish tail will probably have a wider nose, this combined with the increased rocker gives even more drag
so what you gain in planing area you lose i n rocker push
unless you keep the fish as a twinnie so it won't go on its rail so much and that
means you won't have rail catch and you can keep the rocker fairly flat
but it will still have a tendency to nose catch in a steep pocket if you keep the rocker minimal
the fish tail is supposed to be like two pin tails in a way as far as burying each half of the tail
also there is some theory about rail to rail transfer which I don't know about
but it supposedly guides the water from one rail to the other?
you can see it in photos sometimes
in summary so if you were getting a fish tail then you might consider a twinnie or a quad so you don;'t have to rev up the rocker or egg down the rails to make them soft
a pintail on the other hand could be the exact opposite as
it means you can have more planshape curve and therefore need less rocker
for it to fit in the wave properly
it also gives less planing area therefore you have less "plane"
but the reduiced rocker means you get more "glide" - (as you push less water).
so you lose speed from planing area but gain speed because of less rocker push
you can ride this as twinne quad tri etc without any drawbacks.
but I guess the tradional way is with a fin in the back - ie trifin
with pintails
in barrels the tail will fit in the pocket better
but you won't be able to plane out onto the shoulder as much as you might on a fat fish
so you have at tendency to surf in the pocket more
luckily a pintail has got more chance of going vertical
depending on where you put the wide point
wide point in the centre means less rail engaged at the back
means snappier turns off the bottom
and off the top
but less ability to do a powerful roundhouse cutback
courtesy of the reduced amount of rail wetted at the nose in the initial part of the cutty
I guess a square tail will fall somewhere in the middle.
I have pintails and fish(s)
I have ridden them as tris and quads
my fish are made t o go on the r ail in most cases so have slightly more rocker
that makes them more forgiving
the pintails have fairly flat rocker and go faster but need more attention from the rider
the fishtails are superb in peaky conditions that run into deep water but still have a shoulder to do s turns on
the pintails are great for down the line and can wind up speed really well
I also have two fish which are trifins with very slight rocker and really hard down squarish rails and
they go super fast but are so hard to ride without catching a rail they take all the enjoyment out of surfing
they were made by a standup shaper in about 2000
all of my boards have big concaves which flatten out the stringer line
but in the past I have ridden nose vee to single concave to double concave off the tail with a vee in the middle of the double concave - and the same characteristics seem to apply
(By the way - a vee in the tail seems to make foam ball riding easier)
did I answere any of your questions?
-
norm
- Local (More than 25 post)
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:19 pm
- Location: Mililani, Hawaii
Headwax,
I got caught up in tsunami warnings... Some domestic duties and a surf session on a falling northshore swell...sorry I didn't respond sooner. I had to read your response a couple times, and I can relate to some of your comments. Very cool!!! From what you described, I want to try a rounded pin for more pocket, down the line surfing. If Kelly (Slater) can reinvent his surfing over decades, hopefully I can add a turn or two to carve in the pocket. Sarj mentioned, it's a matter of style, maybe it's possible to teach an old dog new tricks. I still get the stoke from getting a new board and I'll definitely will use the info you gave me to make a choice on tail design. Thanks for the "kneeboard" perspective... And I think you answered my questions in detail.
Aloha,
I got caught up in tsunami warnings... Some domestic duties and a surf session on a falling northshore swell...sorry I didn't respond sooner. I had to read your response a couple times, and I can relate to some of your comments. Very cool!!! From what you described, I want to try a rounded pin for more pocket, down the line surfing. If Kelly (Slater) can reinvent his surfing over decades, hopefully I can add a turn or two to carve in the pocket. Sarj mentioned, it's a matter of style, maybe it's possible to teach an old dog new tricks. I still get the stoke from getting a new board and I'll definitely will use the info you gave me to make a choice on tail design. Thanks for the "kneeboard" perspective... And I think you answered my questions in detail.
Aloha,
norm
A board that's flat and narrow out through the last 6" (a gunny pintail, say) will have a ton of drive (speed when put on tail rail) and heaps of speed (owing to rail length), but it may be problematic to turn on a button, and it won't forgive late drops especially after wild reos.
So you start lifting the rocker in the last 6" and shortening the tail - you go to a rounded tail or a squash. Trying for some balance between the drive and stiffness of an extreme pin and the speed and control off the top you want. The more you lift the rocker in the last 6", the better the board will co-operate in late reos, but the more drive you will lose, so you widen the tail so the wave doesn't leave you behind every time you top turn. You can read about the impact of tail shape here http://www.surfscience.com/topics/surfb ... il-shapes/
Then you get to the point where you have infinite rocker lift, because there isn't any fibreglass there, because you've cut it all away to make a fish tail. How do you get control and drive back? (what Headwax said)
[/url]
So you start lifting the rocker in the last 6" and shortening the tail - you go to a rounded tail or a squash. Trying for some balance between the drive and stiffness of an extreme pin and the speed and control off the top you want. The more you lift the rocker in the last 6", the better the board will co-operate in late reos, but the more drive you will lose, so you widen the tail so the wave doesn't leave you behind every time you top turn. You can read about the impact of tail shape here http://www.surfscience.com/topics/surfb ... il-shapes/
Then you get to the point where you have infinite rocker lift, because there isn't any fibreglass there, because you've cut it all away to make a fish tail. How do you get control and drive back? (what Headwax said)
[/url]
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norm
- Local (More than 25 post)
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:19 pm
- Location: Mililani, Hawaii
Red,
Thanks for the response.... now I know that I am smart enough to know that I am not too smart. I went to the site on tail designs and it gave me a pretty good idea on what each tail does, the hard part is relating the rail, foil, contours, length to getting a functional kneeboard. That part is really complex tieing all those variables to get a board that fits my style. Thank God for really good shapers!
I wanted to get some ideas on what tail design would help me go more vertical and get some turns in the pocket... not releasing the fins, but more of a carving style. I may already have the "perfect" board, I just need to adjust the lines I take. I'm trying to get an idea for a board that works in head high to double overhead waves, like Laniakea. Mahalo for sharing.
Thanks for the response.... now I know that I am smart enough to know that I am not too smart. I went to the site on tail designs and it gave me a pretty good idea on what each tail does, the hard part is relating the rail, foil, contours, length to getting a functional kneeboard. That part is really complex tieing all those variables to get a board that fits my style. Thank God for really good shapers!
I wanted to get some ideas on what tail design would help me go more vertical and get some turns in the pocket... not releasing the fins, but more of a carving style. I may already have the "perfect" board, I just need to adjust the lines I take. I'm trying to get an idea for a board that works in head high to double overhead waves, like Laniakea. Mahalo for sharing.
norm
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southpeakbrad
- Legend (Contribution King!)
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norm
- Local (More than 25 post)
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:19 pm
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Brad,
From the comments that were posted from Sarj, Headwax and Red, I decided to get quad round pin. once I get a few sessions in, I'll give an update. We're due for some big surf for the next few days...a bit out of my league but there should be some medium size surf soon. just in time for your stay on the North Shore. Yahoo!
From the comments that were posted from Sarj, Headwax and Red, I decided to get quad round pin. once I get a few sessions in, I'll give an update. We're due for some big surf for the next few days...a bit out of my league but there should be some medium size surf soon. just in time for your stay on the North Shore. Yahoo!
norm
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southpeakbrad
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