Velo Flex Spoon

[loftusm]

I am building a flex spoon velo.

http://emelmax.blogspot.com.au/p/my-new-velo.html

I will post more images at the end of the week.

I have 2 layers of glass to add to the deck and hull before it will be finished.

Look forward to your feedback.

[analbirth]

like the alfoil idea shame about the carbon being short though, probably only be looks, but you can get uneven flex when it doesn't go full length creating a possible weak point. As you say though being the nose it'll probably be ok. Keep the photo's coming

[kevin]

Are you using suncure resin on the carbon fiber section? Did you layup the carbon as you would the fiberglass..... squeegeeing on the resin and fully saturating it, etc.? Can you think of a method for a cleaner cut line on the border of the carbon? Just picking your brain on the use of carbon fiber....

analbirth makes a good point on the transition from full carbon bottom as a stress point...maybe running tape up the center?

Are you in Australia...can't tell from your blog...

Looks good, thanks for sharing it.

[loftusm]

like the alfoil idea shame about the carbon being short though, probably only be looks, but you can get uneven flex when it doesn't go full length creating a possible weak point. As you say though being the nose it'll probably be ok. Keep the photo's coming

Thanks for your feedback.

The foil saves a heap of sanding and I am making a mini kneeboard for my granddaughter from the insert.

Next time i'll try to find foil wide enough so I don't have to join it. Joining it did give me some crease problems which did transfer into the glass layers. I want to avoid this next time.

Yeh, the carbon. I did the bottom that far because it saved on carbon, (i won't be so tight next time) but I've done a full length on the deck.

I also cut the front of the carbon round so as not to leave a straight line. I don't like straight line joins as they create weak points as you mentioned.

I don't perceive any strength problems in that area, but we'll see.

thanks again.

[loftusm]

Are you using suncure resin on the carbon fiber section? Did you layup the carbon as you would the fiberglass..... squeegeeing on the resin and fully saturating it, etc.? Can you think of a method for a cleaner cut line on the border of the carbon? Just picking your brain on the use of carbon fiber....

analbirth makes a good point on the transition from full carbon bottom as a stress point...maybe running tape up the center?

Are you in Australia...can't tell from your blog...

Looks good, thanks for sharing it.

Thanks Kevin
Yes I did use suncure and rolled it with a notched roller just to get good penetration. Apart from that, it was the same as normal glassing.

After a number of conversations with George G, he advised to use the least amount of resin possible as too much resin reduces the flex ability and makes it more prone to cracking and fracturing, amongst other things, weight etc.

Not sure about the edge of the cloth, but they will be covered with my final paint job, so I wasn't to concerned.

I have a contact at Colan Industries who said that you can use a spray on chemical which holds the matting together and disolves with the resin application. Sounds too fussy for me.

You can also sew the edge with a carbon fibre thread before you cut it.

Once again, I am looking more for functionality of the flex and the dynamic of the spoon, rather than ascetics and paint covers a multitude of sins.

I am still experimenting and still learning. This is the fun part for me.

Yes. I am in OZ.

thanks for your input. keep it coming.

[loftusm]

I've just posted some photos of george greenough on my blog.

http://emelmax.blogspot.com.au/p/george-greenough.html

[loftusm]

I visited George in 1999 at Lenox Head, at his pyramid, to discuss his thoughts on the spoon and have spoken to him a number of times by phone since.

He gets somewhat frustrated now to talk about the flex spoon. I think he is over it because he has many other creations that probably surpass those of his early years. He has moved on.

check out his recent project: http://rapidresponsetechnology.net/

George is a very intelligent, eccentric human with a passion for all things ocean.

It must be said that he did not appear to have any commercial interest in his creation of the flex spoon. It existence was more a by-product of his very creative and innovative mind. Light years ahead of the rest of us.

Flex, Flex, Flex.

My thoughts are that the concept of the flex spoon is that is dynamically creates rocker on turns.

A normal board has nose and tail rocker to help create drive but the spoon is flat from about the centre to the tail.

The foam core of the board is replaced with just fibreglass. This allows the board to flex and bend on turns. The stored energy in the fibreglass then wants to return to its original state, which creates a flex-return action that pushes the board forward.

The creation of these boards is more an art than a science.

We don't have any metrics to measure flex, flex-return, the angles of flex or distance of the flex up the board etc. Most of it is trial and error and learning from each other. Thanks to all those sharing their knowledge with the rest of us.

George is quite emphatic that 2 boards made the same way, in the same mould can produce 2 completely different results. So extreme, that sometimes one would end up in the fire because it didn't work.

There are basically two types of flex spoon:
1. The Velo a displacement hull - A wider spoon generally used for bigger surf conditions.
2. The edgeboard - narrower and more suited to smaller waves.

Like most surfboards, the sizing of these is again subjective and relative to the rider, their size, riding style, type of waves etc. However, changes in the planshape dimensions will also affect the flex conditions of the board.

...to be continued

Next: How does flex and drive occur?

look forward to your comments and feedback.

[red]

Hi,
I appreciate your posts and like your blog. It's great that you are refining construction techniques. .

I post the following comments in the name of discussion. The last para is the most important.

How does flex and drive occur?

Personally I believe that the two are incompatible. My thinking is along these lines. If the board is bending away from the water, then it is shedding power (force that could be going into lift is being lost). My personal experience through building stiffer and stiffer epoxies is that the stiffer a board setup has (including the fins), the better drive it has. Whether you can get it where you want to, or enjoy the trip, is another matter.

Stored energy released? I'll again suggest that this is an illusion. For the fibreglass to spring back the supporting force of water needs to drop below some elastic value of the fibreglass. In order for this to happen, the board is no longer being pushed in a turn, but is in a state of transition to trim. The fibreglass is just recovering to a point where water supporting force balances fibreglass elastic force.

Now, by having postulated that stiff boards provide better energy transference than flexible ones, am I suggesting that the flexspoon concept is invalid?
NO, not at all. I think that the concept of dynamic rocker is a brilliant way of making the maneuverability / speed tradeoff, and building in a ton of fun along the way.

Peace
Red

[analbirth]

i can see what your saying but not sure i agree Red, we'll have to sit down one day over a cartoon and pick the topic apart )))

[crox]

"How does flex and drive occur?"

How do the blades that Pistorius use work? ......Such that there is a possibility he could end up [or someone probably will] running faster than with normal legs.

The danger is in evaluating the information as if you are playing noughts & crosses, only to find that you are playing three dimensional noughts & crosses.

Interesting conversation

[Casey Patelski]

Good analogy Red. Same concept with suspension on a mountain bike. Suspended bikes ride smoother but are slower because they "absorb energy" the do not react or project off of it as quickly. But you cant last very long physically on a rough ride with out suspension, so there is "tuning and spring rate formulas".

[Headwax.]

heh red I was keeping my mouth mum on this....

well, to see what's bad about flex watch the old greenough movies specifically when he is coming off the top and the board lets it's flex go at exactly the wrong time, - caused a few wipeouts (?) or rail grabs for stability I seem to remember... then it was the seventies and I don't remember nothing..... (as sgt shultz might say)

greetings form oz

[Headwax.]

loftusm!
I forgot to say what an ace job you are doing and don't listen t o us old farts raving on

thanks for the pics and updates

cheers

[loftusm]

FLEX SPOON. THE TURN & DRIVE
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Thanks so much guys for your input. By the time we finish this discussion I believe we will have a better understanding of how GG's flex spoon was intended to work.

I grew up surfing in the 70's and, like a lot of us, was significantly influenced by GG's movie Crystal Voyager.

Within a few years every man and his dog was making spoons, however, with not much understanding of their function.
A lot of reproductions were "sleds" without any flex, but they looked the same. There were also a lot of hybrids with varying effects.

I think the novelty made them popular and manufacturers were experimenting.

It must be said, that surfing was different then and cannot be ignored as the background to George's accomplishments.

While there were some very creative surfers it would be difficult to find kneeboarders like Simon Farrer and the like in the 70's.

My memories, if they serve me correctly, were of a surf culture that was continuing along its path as a counter-culture lifestyle. Competitive surfing had not reached the peaks it has today and certainly not for kneeboarding.

Long blond hair, suntans, cute girls, hand-crafted clothes, surfboard racks etc seem to dominate my thoughts.

Surfing seemed to be smoother, more relaxed and not competitive. I have very fond memories of me and my mates travelling the coast lines looking for surf. I don't think we were very good, but it didn't matter. We always had a great time. It was our way of life.

Enough reminiscing.

The point I am trying to make is that we were able to surf with less expectation and more freedom and without the aggression that modern day surfers seem to need. It was not necessarily better, just different. Surfing has evolved and it now spectacular and radical. Wow! Acrobatics and manouevres are always a joy to watch, especially kneeboarders.

Equipment was different. I didn't have a leg rope, boards were thicker and more boyant, we didn't worry about the sun (no sun block) etc.

Surfing turns, generally, were banked and released, allowing a more subtle delivery of power out of the turn. Today, surfers tend to ride through the turns relying on their board to not slow, allowing them to maintain speed. Good shapers have learn't how to achieve this.

Thanks to board development radical turns and manoeuvres are now more possible, especially with a skilled, adventurous surfer.

I believe that if you try and ride a flex spoon like a solid core board you will be trying to make a spoon into something it was not meant to be.

They require 2 different surfing styles.



WHAT DO GOLF CLUBS HAVE TO DO WITH FLEX SPOONS?
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The best way I can explain this is by using Golf as my analogy.

I think the difference between steel shafted golf clubs and graphite shafted golf clubs is very similar.

Steel shafted golf club can be swung very aggressively into the hitting area and through the ball and still maintain composure. It will stand up very well. Stronger, harder-hitting golfers certainly benefit from stiffer steel shafts because of their brute power. They need stronger shafts to hold up to the challenge.

On the other hand, if you trying and hit a golf ball the same way with graphite golf clubs you will fail.

Graphite golf clubs need time for the head to catch up to the shaft during the swing.

The swing needs to be more fluid and controlled and when swung at the ball the head of the club needs to be allowed to return to square at impact. Timing this feeling is the secret to a great golf swing with graphite clubs.

They are suited to ladies, seniors and golfers with a slower swing speed. The additional whip of a graphite shafts gives longer distance with less effort, but flex return must be allowed to happen. You can't make it happen.

The flex spoon is similar in concept. It must be delivered into the turn and then allow the flex of the board to return back to its original state.

If you try and drive it through the turn it will stall and die because you will have surfed passed the flex-return opportunity, thus overriding it. As with a graphite golf club, if you swing to aggressively the club face will always be left open and cause a shot that is blocked to the right or a major slice.



IN SUMMARY
----------------------------

Solid core boards and flex spoon style boards function differently. I don't see any point in trying to make them work the same.

They are not just a different type of kneeboard. They function differently.

Apart from flex, they also allow you to get lower on a wave and consequently get more barrels in smaller waves. They also handle bumpy waves well because they can absorb some of the shock better.

Well these are my thoughts. I look forward to your comments and hope that surfers of today will appreciate why a flex spoon is different.

Flex spoons excel with smoothness, fluid turning, timing and rhythm.

[loftusm]

loftusm!
I forgot to say what an ace job you are doing and don't listen t o us old farts raving on

thanks for the pics and updates

cheers

Thanks HeadWax. I too am heading to become one of the old farts. George also had some magic moments in Crystal Voyager.