Is the volume really necessary?

What works & what doesn't and in what type of conditions. Got a "secret" only you and your shaper know???? Post it here... we can keep it quiet ;-)

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crox
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Is the volume really necessary?

Postby crox » Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:19 am

The average kneeboard [I would guess] has a volume of around 36 - 38 litres, add in a deck pad & you've probably got three more.....do we need it?

The average performance shortboard is probably closer to 26 - 28 litres & they are being spun around for a Teahupoo take off.....& some of us have flippers to help!
I find it like duck diving a cork in thick waves.

I'm putting some serious concave in the deck of my next board but keeping the rails the same & with the deck pad it's still going to be about 30 litres.
What are your views?
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Postby griz » Tue Sep 23, 2014 5:31 pm

Your right.

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Relation of KB volume to weight of the rider

Postby JohnS » Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:42 pm

I would think that the KB volume required would also be related to the rider's weight too. I wonder what those ASP pros in tip top shape are weighing in at these days? I'm around 225 lbs. and my boards are typically 6' x 23" Blast boards with some thickness. I have one Flashpoint that's also 6' x 23" that has less volume than my Blasts, but has just enough to work great too. It's just on that hairy edge of not being enough volume for me. I can tell you that the Flashpoint is a luxury when duck diving. And I do wear flippers (Churchills). Later,
J

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Postby crox » Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:58 pm

I would say most shapers would be making a board around the 40 - 43 litre mark for your weight...but I was thinking more of like for like....someone in the region of 160 - 170 lbs.
If you have a full deck pad there is at least a good case for removing that amount of foam from the deck...I don't think a lot of people are factoring this in.
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Postby Lefty » Wed Sep 24, 2014 2:29 am

if you want less foam then the velo spoon is for you...

i always thought the genius of the kneeboard is that it manages to pack a lot of foam into a board and still make it high performance.
it's a long way to the shop if you want a sausage roll

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Postby crox » Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:57 am

Lefty wrote:if you want less foam then the velo spoon is for you...

i always thought the genius of the kneeboard is that it manages to pack a lot of foam into a board and still make it high performance.


I'm pleased to say that we don't need to be that polarized. There is much fertile ground for both discussion & innovation between a spoon & what is now commonly surfed.
We thought the first mobile phones were amazing but they were the size of a brick with poor connectivity! So glad we moved on.
What I'm trying to do is rationalize the amount of foam....why do we need so much more?
Is it because we collectively are an ageing bunch who have put on the pounds & are prepared to sacrifice performance for an easy paddle?
I'm trying to find out the reasons kneeboarders feel they need so much foam.
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Postby eqKneelo » Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:25 am

I'm going big with foam and love it.
My new board is 6'4" x 25.5" x 3 1/4
Why?

I'm 6'4" and 220lbs. I live in SoCal. Waves for the most part are weak.
I don't like to wear fins, or if I do (crowds or currents) I wear fins cut to 3".
The volume is what I need to catch waves. Not wearing fins allows me to move farther back on the board and use my feet to control and power the board.
I surf way better the father back I sit.
It's why most guys who ride an "Aussie Inspired" board don't like it at first. "It's too loose"
They are sitting in the middle of the board instead of over the fins. (Usually because they are wearing long fins instinctively jump forward to get them out of the water.)
I often see guys who's boards don't paddle well, or are literally sinking, but they can overpower the board's shortcomings by wearing huge fins.

ASP surfers are elite paddlers. I've surfed with guys like kelly a few times. Their paddling ability is surreal... They could easily paddle a thin kneeboard into waves, but would have their chests on the nose and would claw their way into waves.

However, I love the foam once on the wave as well.

Once on the wave, I love a full outline. Allows me to surf off the rail instead of off the tail. A longer board allows me to have that outline, a full rocker AND a large sweet spot.
But, A longer board that is thin will surf like a gun. More foam allows the board to stay up on top of the water and fly.

If you wear big fins, you can surf as thin and short a board as you like... All the way down to a Spoon. Probably only want to surf those boards in real waves, or if you're a flyweight and soft waves still float you.

If anyone watched Chris Beresford rip the last few KSUSA contests, realize he's 5'10 and 160lbs... And he's riding a 6'0 x 22" x 3" board.
Foam = Speed if shaped correctly.

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Postby Bryn » Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:13 am

Hi Chris, been asking myself the same thing recently!

I've played with boards up to 42 litres (ridden without flippers), extreme definitely at my 85kg but boy does it go! At the same time one of my fave all time boards (i'm sure you will remember it!) was super thin and bladey with probably nearer 34 litres (with flippers).

I think paddle speed is greatly influenced by width as well as rocker and those 26 litre blades probably un stick and release a whole lot quicker than a 17" nosed kneeboard does as well as being able to get more purchase with your arms with less width.

But then look at Simon, he does OK in critical waves!! Paddle ability/fitness is definitely a key element.

As long as there is some inherent lift from rocker/bottom contours/muscle to get you in to a wave then that volume shouldn't be needed but I like how a thicker (2 3/4" but well foiled) board rides and the run you can get on them. All seems to flow together a lot nicer. Especially without flippers but as you said, it's like duck diving a cork at times!

Had a great session on my little 5'5" on Sunday which is a move back to a bit wider and thinner out of a blank error and not being able to get the thickness with the rocker I wanted but it went super well and paddled beautifully. It does still have other 37 litres at 5'5" x 23 1/2" x 2 5/8" though.

If I was surfing perfect walled waves all the time then probably wouldn't need much foam at all, for versatility and to maintain speed and glide I think its definitely needed without the ability to massively change up the pressure areas on a board like a foot boarder can. I surf regularly with a guy who makes his alaia go in total dribble but that's a whole different ball game again.

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Postby Bryn » Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:14 am

In fact I think our basically static stance could have a lot to do with it...

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Postby crox » Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:25 am

Thanks for the reply eq.
You are not your average build so I can see you would need some extra foam...I'm guessing your board would come in close to 50 litres.
If you need that kind of volume to catch waves then you are on the right board but when the waves pack a punch don't you find it hard to duck dive?

"But, A longer board that is thin will surf like a gun. More foam allows the board to stay up on top of the water and fly."

An alaia will fly at 1/2" thick.
Once up & riding a thick board has little influence other than being slightly harder to control.....you can have the same rails so that the buried
profile remains the same so from a hydrodynamic point of view there is no difference....[I had a board with concave deck & deep concave
bottom...low volume but felt like riding a thick board because of it's chunky rails].
Taking foam out of the central thickness gives a lower centre of gravity & more control. It is the volume from thickness I'm interested in rather
than from extra width
It is not just the ASP surfers riding that sort of volume...it's just common for a performance shortboard....people I know at
my regular fairly weak beachbreak & they are catching waves & surfing well on them.
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Postby crox » Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:53 am

Hello Bryn

I hadn't seen your post!

I think much of the sensation when riding a thicker board is down to rail thickness - "Once up & riding a thick board has little influence other than
being slightly harder to control.....you can have the same rails so that the buried profile remains the same so from a hydrodynamic point of view
there is no difference....[I had a board with concave deck & deep concave bottom...low volume but felt like riding a thick board because of it's
chunky rails]."

"But then look at Simon, he does OK in critical waves!! Paddle ability/fitness is definitely a key element."
For sure that is true but he is an exception & maybe sometimes thinks he is duckdiving a cork!

I am happy losing a bit of paddle speed to gain the duckdiving ability & lower center of gravity [particularly where there is a thick dumpy peak &
short paddle]....& kneeboards are meant to take off late anyway!
Perhaps I'm the odd one out!
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Postby crox » Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:04 am

"I think paddle speed is greatly influenced by width as well as rocker and those 26 litre blades probably un stick and release a whole lot quicker than a 17" nosed kneeboard does as well as being able to get more purchase with your arms with less width."

Not sure about that Bryn...a shortboarder friend who rode one of my boards remarked on how easy it was to paddle & catch waves with....more like a "fun board"

Of course, the width in the nose doesn't help with duckdiving either.
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Postby eqKneelo » Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:04 am

Great points, Byrn.

Comparing a surf board and kneeboard gets a little murky because of their inherent designs.

The widest short boards are maybe 20" (think Jordy rides one) but the narrowest kneeboards are maybe 21", and that would be for a small Kneelo.

And surfboard noses are FAR narrower. If a kneeboard with a 17" nose doesn't float it's rider, it will plow water.
I hear what you're saying Crox, flat boards like Alaia's do fly, but only turn if you are standing on them. Having a foot on the tail, and a front foot you can you can unweight, is essential. A flat kneeboard is tough to turn and almost impossible to get on rail.

As for Duckdiving... I don't care. I'll take my lumps and beatings to have the right board under me. 8)

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Postby crox » Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:43 am

I think the essence of what I am saying is that once up & riding, thickness is only a drawback...providing you have the same rails. How can it help?
So from a performance point of view it is a negative. Lower COG = more control & power.
The only downside is paddling ability, which takes me back to - "Is it because we collectively are an ageing bunch who have put on the pounds & are prepared to sacrifice performance for an easy paddle?" Or is it because we've got used to what we ride & haven't tried it?
Most thin boards I have seen have thin rails & therefore not what I'm talking about.


"As for Duckdiving... I don't care. I'll take my lumps and beatings to have the right board under me."

But if you can't get out you can't surf them....& at some French beachbreaks I've surfed that is the problem!
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Postby eqKneelo » Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:10 pm

Hey Crox-
I never have problem with too much volume once on the wave.
Granted, your board has to be made properly. If it's a big floaty cork it's not gonna get on a rail either.
And in pumping waves, or waves that break and die out quick, volume doesn't really matter.
Where I see it helping is when waves back off then jack, or reform. Extra volume lets you stay with the wave.

:lol: Beaches of France definitely test your paddling, but so does my home break of OCEAN BEACH SAN FRANCISCO.
Every year I go back with boards that are a little bigger, and a little thicker, and I've always thought "why didn't I go bigger?"
I've learned that since I can't suck dive as deep, to use the volume to pop to the surface faster and start paddling. Extra paddling speed helps you stay out of harms way as well. (Until it doesn't, and then here comes the Pain Train!8)

End of the day, I think it's all about a board that floats you and paddles well. If you like the performance of a thin board and can get it into waves, that's the board for you. If you feel like you bog off the top or in flatter waves, might be time to explore getting some meat on your stringer.
Cheers Crox
EQ


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