Is the volume really necessary?

What works & what doesn't and in what type of conditions. Got a "secret" only you and your shaper know???? Post it here... we can keep it quiet ;-)

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crox
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Post by crox »

All I'm hearing here is the effect on wave catching/paddling ability. I was not interested in that, only the improved riding performance.
I have tried to bring to the discussion the benefit of lower volume under your knees & where the foam is of no hydrodynamic importance while up & riding.
I have said to leave the rails the same volume.
"All we are saying, is give knees a chance"
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Post by kneehighdesigns »

Hi Tom Linn , was the mini simmons polystyrene / epoxy?? . My lastest test board is very flat and i agree on your findings with flatter shapes . although I believe many different things are at play though in conjunction with bottom curve and volume and in saying that , Crox yes thinner boards perform in a different manner but availability of wave energy is always going to be different unless its fast hollow waves your are riding and only that all of the time , as tom and I think alike in regards to investigation of appropriate design for small conditions . Short board = yes wide tail = yes but i still believe in volume where it counts and thats under your knees and of course FOIL shape ( where foam is not so needed.) Again I say i am no proclaimed expert , we are all constantly learning more about our surfing I feel .
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Post by crox »

Rather than repeating myself, I will come from the other angle.
How does extra volume under your knees aid performance once you are up & riding? Wave energy has no bearing on this.
If that volume never enters the water [while riding] all it does is give you a higher centre of gravity, less feel, control & power.
"All we are saying, is give knees a chance"
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Bob
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Post by Bob »

I am 250 lbs and 6'5".
I now ride a 6'0" by 23" and used to ride a 5'10" by 21.5". (Fins back)
A couple of guys have said that my boards don't ride any different when the waves are good but my new board is much better over the dead spots.
I ride SCruz quite a bit and those waves have a lot of dead spots in them.
Don't know if that helps but there it is.
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Post by crox »

Sorry Bob but it doesn't answer the question above.
"All we are saying, is give knees a chance"
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Post by Bryn »

Hi Chris, I can't help but think that actually being a bit higher up will give you more power over the rail and how it enters the water as you have more leverage. Couple that with knees apart and weight low and forward to balance out and you have more options from a fixed position maybe?

I guess it depends what you want to achieve in terms of feel from your board. Ultimately I guess more volume is about user friendliness in a wide range of conditions rather than ultimate performance in a small window. If talking about issues duck diving heavy waves you could probably go 2" thick easy if the power is there. Mark Venn's balsa boards were thin down to 1 3/4" if I remember rightly. Went well but took a lot of adjustment! Also gained volume being eps/epoxy. Build it and see!! Must do that board swap day soon ;)

Red, be interested to hear more on your deck stringer comment, also agree on the paddling wide boards thing!
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Post by crox »

Hello Bryn, you said - "I can't help but think that actually being a bit higher up will give you more power over the rail and how it enters the water as you have more leverage."

It's a theory but I don't think that's the case. To transfer power you need stability & low centre of gravity, the further you get away from the bottom of the board the more unstable the board becomes....imagine a board 4" thick. It also doesn't fit with the improved performance with knee dents/footwells reports.....& Kelly wouldn't be requiring the thinnest amount of foam beneath his feet.

& you said - " Ultimately I guess more volume is about user friendliness in a wide range of conditions rather than ultimate performance in a small window."

That is quite true, but that user friendliness is only talking about ease of paddling & catching waves but not up & riding performance.
I have tried to separate the two as I feel people seem to believe that somehow volume in the area of the board that doesn't get immersed when riding somehow makes the board float & glide better, when the only time it has an effect is when it is immersed at slow paddling speed.

It would be great to do the board swap....I'm out of the water at the moment with a hole in my ankle...using a heavy duty bruchcutter blade that fired a stone like a bullet...nearly a month & not healed & now think it might also be broken!
So watch out.....I could get tetchy! :lol:
"All we are saying, is give knees a chance"
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Post by eqKneelo »

Crox-
Volume 100% helps me surf better.

It allows me to surf average waves as well as I surf good waves because I have similar speed.

We all know that feeling of getting what looks like a good wave, but it doesn't have the juice to really get us going.

Performance surfing is all about speed. No speed, you can't hit the lip, rebound, or cut back with with momentum.

I see plenty of guys riding boards that do not float them. They can catch waves, due to the assistance of fins, but are immediately nursing the board through turns and if they do get an opportunity to hit the lip, the board hangs up or doesn't redirect.

These same guys surf well in great powerful waves.

Boards WITH volume can be surfed in both good and less-than-good waves.

Tom-
I hear you, but how much do you weight? 170lbs? :lol:
Put on a 40lbs flack jacket and take out your 4'11 x 2"... See how that works out. 8)

Red- great point that boards +22" are pigs. So true. I feel guys who fit boards 6'x22" are at a great advantage. Something about the dynamics.

Kneehighdesign- "our fixed position is our enemy" so true. It's why comparing our boards to surfing boards only goes so far.
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Post by eqKneelo »

Crox- "to transfer power you need stability and a low center of gravity".
So true!
At 6'4", I have never had a low center of gravity until I started riding boards +25" wide. Knees are farther apart, butts lower, more stable.

However, and thin 25" wide board would be a plow. Gotta beef it up.
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Post by joe »

I am no design expert and certainly not an elite surfer or paddler. I have boards that range from low to high volume. All other things being equal, I don't think you lose surfing performance by decreasing volume (within reason), at least in decent quality waves.

I also think the inlaid deck pad lowers the center of gravity and does provide noticeable/positive feel.

My two cents.

This guy rides small, potato chip thin boards and they seem to work. Everybody is different.

[fullalbumimg]22438[/fullalbumimg]
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Post by crox »

eq, I think you have missed my point.

I could take your board & remove foam from the area under your chest & knees [the areas that don't get immersed & have no hydrodynamic effect when riding] & it would not adversely affect your speed or ability to hit the lip, rebound, or cut back.
It would give you the benefits I have described.
"All we are saying, is give knees a chance"
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Post by eqKneelo »

:lol:
Really Joe? You cherry pick a shot of Wes in a smoking Indo barrel?
Does anything NOT work in waves like that? 8)

BTW, this guy rides the barrel pretty well too. Rides a board with full volume.

[albumimg]33478[/albumimg]

Wanna compare photos of guys on thin boards and guys on full boards doing turns? 8)
Last edited by eqKneelo on Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by eqKneelo »

Crox- in my experience that just isn't true. I've had 30 years of riding boards with the foam removed under my knees and chest. Boards lose speed on the shoulder or in flats spots. Don't make sections.

They surfed perfect waves really well. Just not typical waves for where I live.

I'd love to have some physicist do an algorithm for us.

The board which offers perfect performance, flotation, without an extra ouch of foam = x

Wave Power= y
Rider weight = v
Rider Height = z

(Y) X (v + z) = x

(Note, I suck at math.)
:P
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Post by crox »

Sorry....but it is true!
The float only comes into play when it is immersed.
"All we are saying, is give knees a chance"
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Post by crox »

To make it simple....Think of a ship.....it has little volume in it's structure & if you filled it with foam to the gunwales it would not float any better [in fact worse]....however if sunk it would make a substantial difference.
Last edited by crox on Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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