Kneeboard Surfing USA Community Forum

Blah, Blah Blah, Blah.... Blah, Blah, Blah.......

Joe said it perfectly, everyone is different and should ride what works for them. I agree!

Someone said less volume is better in bigger powerful surf, I will agree with this partially only when you are actually up to speed, at plane and tapping the wave for all of it's juice.

Boards over 22+ are pigs and don't paddle for &%$@, not if they are foiled right and the volume is on the stringer or center of the board. Duck diving isn't an issue unless you are taking the lip square in the back and then non of us are safe.

Thickness on the stringer, not on the rails. I agree with this 100%!

I was fortunate to take part in a conversation with a bunch of the top pros (Kelly being one of them) out at Cloudbreak last year during one of our lay days for the Volcom Fiji Pro. We were on hold because the wind was wrong, not because it was small. during this discussion Kelly yelled over at me as I was paddling past him and asked me what I was riding. I told him a 6'-6" Pintail 4 fin 24'-3/4'W X 3"-1/8" T. He asked how tall I was and I told him 6'-6". He then told me that he has gone to a slightly smaller board at 5'-10" with a fuller nose and width. By adding the volume he was able to ride something a little smaller and still have a foiled rail while not sacrificing paddling speed. He's also 5'-10" in height!
You all know what he did during the 2012/2013 events there and he did it on that same board I described above. He even rose one of his Semi Final waves on his knees which gives you a better perspective of the wide points on the board and the volume.

Look at the big wave guys, Dave Wassel, Alex gray and others. These guys are riding bigger boards that are thicker, yet have the rails foiled down to meet their needs. Why, they need the volume to paddle in over the hump in order to get on the wave in some cases, yet once they are on the wave they have a foiled rail that holds and allows them to control and maneuver as needed. Of course rocker and bottom play their on parts in the big scheme of things, but trying to paddle a board that doesn't have enough volume to really float you in to sizable surf just adds stress to the situation and you don't need any more stress on your plate when it's DOH+.

I have had thinner boards at 2"-7/8" thick and have caught plenty of waves with them when I'm surfing a place like Fiji, Hawaii and other places where the waves stand up drive down the reef. At the same time those board only worked when the waves are like that and when not they push water which reduces your ability to get on plane and maneuver as needed. For me, slightly more volume was the trick for maximum paddle speed and ability while maintaining or increasing performance because of the speed generated from having more float.

Ride what you want, Ride what you need and Ride what works.

@bigtony..............Yep "I'm out" like you said ride what ya wanna ride and what works for ya !! BTW hope you have been keeping well tony !

All I have attempted to do is establish a simple design principle - That you can remove foam from areas of the board that do not get immersed or interact with the water while riding without affecting the boards ability to perform [when riding] in any conditions & also have the benefit of improving feel, control & power.
I think I must be a hopeless communicator!

Hi Crox

I am probably stating the obvious but removing volume from anywhere reduces buoyancy. For those of us that feel our shapers have got it right (and didn't ask for an easy paddle option) then a reduced volume facsimile would appear to increase the likelihood of bogging down at the end of roundhouse cutbacks and of the lips when (going by videos) kneeboards look to be on the verge of coming off the plane.

I do like the idea of deckwells though - lower centre of gravity, comfort and aesthetics. Looking forward to eating humble pie when you build the board mentioned at the start of the thread.

I just thought about that ship analogy, you would change the buoyancy by replacing the air in a boat with foam- foam is denser so you would reduce the buoyancy marginally. One reason foam is handy in boats is that it is not as easily displaced as air when things go pear shaped.

Quote Shelfbreak -

"I am probably stating the obvious but removing volume from anywhere reduces buoyancy."

Yes.....but I'm only talking about when riding...so when that buoyancy is not interacting with the water through immersion it acts like the foam in my ship.

You also said -

"appear to increase the likelihood of bogging down at the end of roundhouse cutbacks and of the lips"

& I said above - "you can remove foam from areas of the board that do not get immersed or interact with the water while riding"
So please explain how it would do that.

You also said -
"I just thought about that ship analogy, you would change the buoyancy by replacing the air in a boat with foam- foam is denser so you would reduce the buoyancy marginally."

When I had stated the same thing - " [in fact worse]...."
See quote below-


"To make it simple....Think of a ship.....it has little volume in it's structure & if you filled it with foam to the gunwales it would not float any better [in fact worse]....however if sunk it would make a substantial difference."

bigtony wrote:
Boards over 22+ are pigs and don't paddle for &%$@, not if they are foiled right and the volume is on the stringer or center of the board.

Yep. I need to foil out my next board a little bit more and still keep volume on the stringer. My worry about that with my current board was that you end up with more of a domed deck, but realized recently that the deck sloping toward the rails doesn't make it any harder to stay on the board. I operated for a while under the assumption that a flat or concave deck was easier to not fall or slip off when doing reentries and that it would give you more torque when turning harder, but now realize that's completely wrong. The slope is slight and just not enough to notice, especially if you use a thick pad.

I will say that in the past year as I've gone from 5'6" old school boards to 6'0" or longer that length is a trade off (but worth its benefits) - it's harder to fit a longer board into tight transition, like if you snap stall in the pocket and end up with your board flat on the wave and facing straight down for a second, or reenter very late and straight down. Surfing it's much easier to stand on the tail and keep the nose up in those situations; kneeriding I feel like a pearl longer boards slightly more often. The 6'2" Flashpoint I bought from Ed had a flipped nose and that really helped negate some of this minor issue - need to work that design aspect into my next board.

Also have found that added width doesn't necessarily makes a board slower either; when you're riding you're nearly always only gliding on some portion of one side of the board or the other anyway, so effectively a 24 inch board is running on the same width as a 21.5. When that's not the case and you're gliding on the whole bottom of the board those situations are almost always about wanting float more than speed anyway. The extra float and wider stance options are worth the minor downside of not quite being able to squeeze into some really small barrels. What does drive me crazy though is if the board is too wide to fit under my arm comfortably and walk a long way - can't do wider than 23 or so because of that.

Hank, I went with foiled rails (Brewer) and a flat deck on my main boards. You don't have to lose the volume in the middle to foil rails.

OceanTrends17 wrote:Hank, I went with foiled rails (Brewer) and a flat deck on my main boards. You don't have to lose the volume in the middle to foil rails.

yeah I'm using the term foil in a sloppy way. Let's swap boards for a few waves the next time we cross paths - should be interesting as they're almost exact opposites design-wise.

hankj wrote:

OceanTrends17 wrote:Hank, I went with foiled rails (Brewer) and a flat deck on my main boards. You don't have to lose the volume in the middle to foil rails.

yeah I'm using the term foil in a sloppy way. Let's swap boards for a few waves the next time we cross paths - should be interesting as they're almost exact opposites design-wise.

Opposites for certain! 14" nose with a good deal of rocker, with the wide point in the middle of the board.

I don't know if I could even ride your board; but it would make the paddle out a lot easier.

Westport this weekend? I'll be there Fri-Sun.

Hi Crox

I should have re-read your comment on the boat analogy.

I do differ with respect to buoyancy. My hypothesis is that at stages in certain manoeuvres our boards slow down dramatically and unlike stand-ups we cant compensate as easily to get going again. In these circumstances I contend that buoyancy comes into play sometimes accompanied by arm flapping.


Cheers

Is the volume really necessary ... why yes, yes it is.

Just how much volume is required is another question all together.

Since returning to kneeboarding about 5 years ago, after 30-odd years on "normal" boards ... I've been reducing the volume on each new board I get.

Theres a happy medium in this equation ... and the equation varies with each individual. There is no secret formula ... us humoons are far to divers a bunch for that.

I'm loving the lower volume in my boards ... its taken some time to get my head around certain aspects ... but the improved performance far outstrips any of the negatives others may associate with less foam.

Each to their own ... I mean that why you guys ride kneeboards ... right ?

Shelfbreak said -
"I do differ with respect to buoyancy. My hypothesis is that at stages in certain manoeuvres our boards slow down dramatically and unlike stand-ups we cant compensate as easily to get going again."


& I had already said -
"Yes.....but I'm only talking about when riding...so when that buoyancy is not interacting with the water through immersion it acts like the foam in my ship."

If I took your board & only removed foam from your board that had no hydrodynamic effect while riding, in other words that did not get immersed or interact with the water, why would it bog more easily?

Womble said - "Each to their own ... I mean that why you guys ride kneeboards ... right ?"
& Shelfbreak said - "For those of us that feel our shapers have got it right "

I have only tried to establish a design principle.....if that principle can be utilized by those who can see it's benefits, or are simply inquisitive & want to explore kneeboard design then that is great....& indeed what the design forum is for.
I have never suggested that shapers have got it wrong or that anyone is riding either the right or wrong board....it's just that people have a tendency to get the wrong end of the stick & become very defensive, when this is in no way a personal issue.

OceanTrends17 wrote:

hankj wrote:

OceanTrends17 wrote:Hank, I went with foiled rails (Brewer) and a flat deck on my main boards. You don't have to lose the volume in the middle to foil rails.

yeah I'm using the term foil in a sloppy way. Let's swap boards for a few waves the next time we cross paths - should be interesting as they're almost exact opposites design-wise.

Opposites for certain! 14" nose with a good deal of rocker, with the wide point in the middle of the board.

I don't know if I could even ride your board; but it would make the paddle out a lot easier.

Westport this weekend? I'll be there Fri-Sun.

My board is a dream to paddle! It glides amazingly well and very easily rolls over the top of the wave you're paddling for It's a little tanky in little surf, get surprisingly easy to break loose from chest to head high, then sits down and tracks when it's bigger. Not sure why you can flick it sideways on a 4 foot wave but need to rail it on a 7 foot wave, but better than the other way around.

I am going to surf this weekend! Probably Saturday - hopefully the contest doesn't make it a total zoo - text me where you're going out and I'll find you - will message my # via FB.