contest judging

[hart]

[quote="ross"]i'll probably be shot down for this,but here goes.

quote]

too bloody cool mate..

speak up and if you are knocked down (which you won't be)..I'll lend out a hand.

did you guys have waves last weekend? Sydney had good east swell both days. 6 foot even Saturday.

(the east meant everyone had waves ..how cool)

hart

[ross]

i wouldnt disagree with you there red.i just think the best things about contests are the opportunity to see people you havent seen for a while,see what people are riding and how the best guys are surfing. theres something wierd about using numbers to score surfing(not that i have any solution to that one.)gatherings are the go i reckon,it seems to eliminate politics and other negatives.i guess the things i listed in my last thread are based on where kneeboarding came from.i feel like a throwback to that time after riding kneeboards for 18 of my 30years.
it makes me proud when red hot surfers from the northern beaches who have since moved to my area rave about farrer as untouchable,or when i run into a mate who left the pro(WCT) tour ten years ago who wont hear a bad word against kneeboarders cause PC ruled his local pointbreak.
speaking of gatherings yours sounded great,good on ya for doing it,sounds like youve started something there.
PS yeah bruce copa point firing as it does,coulda done with some south though.

[hart]

mate

always a little more does us all

even Copa with a bit more south..

how cool is this site?

I'm listening to Richard Clapton singing "Capricorn Dancer" on ABC, writing to a guy 100 K's away on a website a planet (or so away) it seems.



all is..as always



me

[Ben B.]

Most guys know their capability.I think when it comes to a contest the fact is your surfing to please someone elses eyes and not just one pair,this puts a different spin on your approach to surfing the wave doesnt it?I know when i used to compete i wasnt capable of going to far in a contest but getting to be out watching guys like nov,simon and the rest to me made me a winner i thought

[red]

A formal decision-making (multi-criteria decision analysis) view on judging:
Judging is subjective according to several criteria (speed/control, criticality of turns, innovation, appropriateness, style (length of ride)) based on sensory input (sight, sound, emotion)

Judging is subject to several stimulus and response biases typical when sensory inputs used for estimation (if you like something it seems better than it is):
1. Centering bias: Judges tend to come back to the range of scale they are comfortable with. Also, if stimulus changes (surf, age group, average ability), judge compensates only gradually, not instantly.
2. Contraction bias: Large stimulus are underjudged and small stimuli overjudged (scale ends up shrinking)
3. Logarithmic bias: a 10 is not 2x better than a 5, so it's easy to get some score, but harder to get more score.

So the scale used by most judges looks like this:
album_showpage.php?pic_id=2927
Rather than judging on the straight line from 0-10, average judges work on the curved line. Nothing to get a 2. Easy to get a 5, but hard to even get an 8. Number of turns are important, but quality undervalued. Almost all waves are judged in the yellow region.

A good judge works much closer to the linear scale.
album_showpage.php?pic_id=2928
TOADS and wiggles get nothing. One big move on the outside gets a big score (after all it moves the wave into the "good" category immediately). The wave only gets into the "good" range after at least 1 big move. Tens are achievable in almost every heat.

Hoags did a great job of emphasising this at the PI contest. But let's face it, judging is hard. It's not easy to step onto the panel and get it right for at least a couple of heats.

I'd suggest that the scale be even more detailed. Something like this:
Paddle in, get up, go for big turn, not make it fall off..1.5 max
Get up, never drive off bottom or top...2.5 max (regardless of how many half-turns)
Get up, big whack on inside section of medium wave...+-4
Get up, first turn is big whack on medium wave...+-6
Get up, first turn is big whack on big wave...+-8
etc.

[Bud]

Despite all the detail analogies of the ins and outs of judging.

It'll always remain very subjective.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

If the judge doesn't ride or never rode a kneeboard or the type of surf craft involved, then who is he to judge?

I've often suggested to Randy Rarick etc. that all judges be required to paddle out each and every day before the comp starts and actually surf the place with the type of craft involved.

Be it 30' Waimea, Teahupoo, or 1 foot onshore slop at your every day beach.


This way they get a better perspective of what the surfers are dealing with.

If they can't deal with the given situation then they should be banned from judging.

[Steeno]

love that idea bud...

[red]

Lapa, the head judge at the worlds in Tahiti was not a great surfer and he rode a mal, but he was an excellent judge and mentor for the guys on the panel. He told me he'd never made a tube at Teahupoo. But he's judged all the pro comps there.

Some of the best judges don't even surf, or can't surf well. This may even be an advantage because they judge on what they see, rather than what they think they saw - a common problem for the rest of us.

[Bud]

Regardless,

They wouldn't know what it's like to actually pull off the things they witness.

They wouldn't know how difficult it is to make an outrageous move or a effortlessly fly in completely gutless dribble or super powerful waves.

Some people make it look all too easy. Doing incredible things while surfing in the most demanding conditions. Big or small.

Someone who is unable to actually even get close to pulling it off wouldn't REALLY have clue what was being done.

Would they judge a completely on edge rounded carved loop the same as one that was flatly crabbed and half pivotted?
Would someone flying around seemingly efforlessly with speed be scored less, while another guy hacked disjointedly with more emphasis?

Would they understand the difference?
Would they ACCTUALLY KNOW the difficulty in making a super difficult sitution look easy.
Is it a disadvantage to a great surfer to surf in such a way?

There's a certain South African kid on the QS that got through a heat the other day by just surviving a wave. It was obvious to all, that he didn't have the skills to get a turn off on a nice thick Sunset wall.
He was trying but didn't do anything but barely make the wave.
In the same heat guys were carving their initials on the beasts but got lesser scores for shorter rides.
Carving huge archs was far more difficult than just squiggling along barely in control.

The difference to what they visually see and the real difficulty of what really transpired is all too often lost. Without a real first hand perspective the judgement is flawed.

I still say, " Make the bastards paddle out and try it for themselves before they judge anyone".

[hart]

Sam Egan is an icon of Australian Surfing

He has been described as the Godfather of our Industry..such are his shapes and overall contribution to OZ surfing in general.

Sam is a wise man and yes, he is a surfer. And with thanks, he is a friend (read mentor).

I would respect any decision or comment he made about surfing..particularly if (for example) it involved his son.

Yet I wouldn't have expected him to have surfed the same waves as his son Luke, just prior to doing so.

I couldn't see how we could demand that level of participation from one so experienced.

Like..if ya can't do it..don't comment? huh?

Many good points have been made here..and whether Sam should 'judge' is another question. (but I think he should).

Such a pity judging can be so subjective..for the surfers (involved) themselves.

truly

hart

PS

Speaking of which..Go Andy Irons in the standup World

How goood does this guy surf.. ..?

The focus is now on Hawaii..and another World Title to the local.

too good..

but I dont think the WCT Judges will have to surf first



thankyou for another soapbox from OZ

[john -]

Im with Bud

whilst there are some people who have some ability who make reasonable judges, in general, those in the practical know KNOW

Most pro coaches of sporting teams were pro players, the best most insightful commentators were pro players

in AFL football - its the umpires who decide who gets the player of the year award - the umpires are out in the thick of it

but one man's champ is anothers chump

and if you win perhaps its because Hueys on your side


chump

[ross]

i used to think certain guys had huey on their side.but know one can be that lucky can they?maybe good contest surfers see things in the ocean that the rest of us dont .thanks to the judging format consistence does triumph,but isnt being consistent being predictable ?this type of surfing should not be encouraged.
i guess we are an amatuer sport(lifestyle is my angle) and rely on each other to judge at contests which in itself is a "hotbed" for politics and contraversy.but then again ive heard the same of the pro junior surfing curcuit.thats just competition surfing,if you cant hack the heat you gotta look outside.
i reckon anyone who is unhappy with all this should work a little more on those arvos when the surfs bad instead of forcing yourself to surf in order to practice for contests.use the extra money saved from not surfing in the contests.spend months overseas instead of weeks .
getting bowled off your head in real waves soon makes up for the gratification of winning heats(this only my opinion).
you'll wonder whose winning and how your mates are going from time to time(as i do,but now ive stumbled on this sick website...thanks don harris and co)but your surfing wont suffer.
if you choose this road make sure youve got a good camera.if you ever have any doubts about your choice,pull the albulms out.the richest man is the one with the best photos,not the most money

[Jack Beresford]

Standups have judged most of our events and have generally done a good job. I think we'd always prefer professional Kneeboard judges but they just don't exist over here. I think it's better to have professional judges - albeit standups - rather than amateur kneelos. You can see from the discussions on this site that we don't always agree with each other on what should get the highest score.

[john -]

Hey Jack

pro standup judges will disagree with each other

Id take a kneelo peer anyday

but im happy to disagree with you cos your a kneelo

dorje

[red]

Bud,

Sounds like you need to explain to the QS judges my dissertation on judging on a straight line rather than a curve. Crap judging is crap judging, ragardless who does it.

Don't think Randy would appreciate half his judges drowning beore the days event starts but the survivors would sure know how hard it was to pull a turn