Australian Champion - Discussion

[womble]

Segueing for a moment …

I like it, despite the obvious kneejerk reactionary ...

Splash … that is a fantastic pun … intentional or not …I love that word … KNEE-JERK …

Sensationally apt in the context of ... kneeboarding.


When the Kneeolithic Kneeanderthals meet this weekend to plan further advancement in their quest for world domination (insert evil laughter) …
I'm sure Old Crazy will forward the notion that they be known from this day onwards as the Kneeolithic Kneeanderthal Knee Jerk Reactionaries.

Back on topic …

This must be one of the most eloquently voiced and thought-out discussions I have witnessed for quite some time …
I put my two bobs worth in earlier … and have nothing more of value to add at this point.
But I am really enjoying the discourse of this … very well behaved can of worms.

[splashy]

Hi Womble
Who said sarcasm can't be picked up on emails and forums? Hat's off to you, sir.

[red]

unfortunately only five kneelos turned up and all were from NSW – from what I understand this was despite KSA efforts to support the event.

This has been the case for a few years. I know that every year all the eligible surfers from Vic have assessed the cost of getting to the Australian Masters and, like me, have come to the conclusion that 10 days away, something like $2000 in expenses plus the lost earnings, were simply too high a price to pay. Surfing Australia were always anable to commit to a time window for the kneeboard heats and basically did nothing to support the effort to get there.

Kneeboarders form a solid chunk of the Surfing Australia constituency (kneeboarding was the biggest division at the 2008 Vic Masters Titles) and get little for it. At least the move of the title selection to KSA allows KSA to access some of the government funds that flow into Surfing Australia and some of the kneeboarder's membership dues.

This is the important bit of the post:
These funds might be applied towards costs for judges at an event where club champions from each state battle it out for the title - possibly as an adjunct to one or more of the KSA "pro" events. The clubs would decide who to nominate (under governance and ethics guidelines). This would
1. encourage contenders to support kneeboarding at their local and state level (via the club and state surfing association memberships), so raising the level of surfing at the local level through constant exposure to the best locals
2. distribute the load of selection more widely (acting as a "filter" to limit a single wildcard contender getting "lucky" on the day of the titles competition) - everyone at he titles will have worked and been consistent to even get a place there
3. limit the size of the actual title surf off to a top 32 (for instance), manageable in one day
4. Encourage clubs to support their "champions" even though many members might prefer honking into their beers, rather than actually competing themselves

Red

[jamie]

Its all well and good to put forward theory with regard to geography, and it can be argued in reverse and upside down if you like.
In the 90's there were a few surfing oz titles run in WA, there were few WA kneelos who competed - stand ups scoring points for there team dont count in this discussion IMHO.
Also a lot of east coat kneelos didnt travel to west oz due to distance and cost.

Phil Arhtur gets across from South Oz with some crew on occasion and should be considered - would he like to compete at Phillip is for the aust kneelo champs or travel to 3 comps for the circuit champ and aust champ.
This makes geography a mute point.

Again i will reinterate the start point and the question that needs to be answered.

Surfing Oz/ surfing vic have put the question to competitive kneeboarders in general that we should run our own event or circuit to decide the surfing Australia kneelo champ.

Now we have a circuit and and a history of circuit champions, and in most years it has been regarded by the most kneelos that the circuit champ was the ultimate prize. However in the years that the Surfing Oz champ went to the ISA games or ISA run world titles it was debatable. The winner of the circuit was the king with no spoils( a seeding into the ksi world in some years), while the surfing oz champ went on a paid or subsidised trip to the ISA games.
Not sure how others saw it but travelling and competing with a national team of guys and girls who were the best or near best on their wave riding vehicle of choice was the bee's knees for me. (pun and alliteration is that a double score)

Back on thread the discussion is about deciding who Surfing Australia will record as the Surfing Australia kneelo titleholder.

The options as i see it are

1 the ksa circuit champion
2 the phillip is kneelo champion
3 the winner of another event put together by KSA of equal or better standard than Phillip Island - bring Bendalong or Coffs upto the standard of PI in regard to having experienced pro judges and an experienced pro head judge. In an ideal world these guys would have an affinity with kneelos and not just be paid mercenaries.

There are other possabilities, but ask yourself are they acheivable in the short term or long term.

[jamie]

Red you cannot seriously think someone could get lucky and win a comp like Phillip island, coffs or bendy - you need to get thru 4 heats to make the final and even with a good draw a tough semi and final.
Adding more layers and more small comps to determine a winner is backward IMHO.
We need a layer of clubs to foster and support kneelo not to filter better surfers to the top.
who is gunna pay for that ?
Well run clubs and a few well run large comps is the best we can hope for.

[MJ]

There is another option which I believe is being discussed. That is, and I will use a football analogy, we have a home and away competition being the existing KSA circuit. The top group (say 8, 16 or 32) for the year are then selected to represent the sport at the Surfing Aust. Australian titles competition. In essence the final series to crown the Australian Champion.

Pros: This would give the process structure, incorporate both of the existing streams and showcase kneeboarding at the highest level in front of the rest of the surfing community.

Cons: In all likely hood the majority of the kneeboarding community wouldn't get to see it, and if the top 16 didn't turn up previously would this structure entice them to turn up in the future. The fact that the kneelo rippers get a cheque at the end of a successful KSA event but get nicks for the existing Australian Titles might have something to do with it.

[red]

Jamie,
Thank you for your input.
I've got lucky at comps, both with draws and with the conditions on the day and suitability of my equipment) and we've both seen guys have sensational runs - often well deserved, but occasionally favoured by the day, the ompetition and the position of the moon. As Gary Player said, "The more I practice, the luckier I get"

I like your three options. They provide a reference point for much of the discussion that has already taken place in this thread and allow us to further explore other options that might exist beyond the obvious.

The KSA circuit champion should be a title that reflects commitment, dedication and consistency. It should belong to the person who consistently places in the finals at KSA events. I agreee it is probably requires the most energy from the surfer and his family. For use as an Australian Title while dealing with equity a "best of" format might be required, which raises its own set of issues.

The PI contest is without doubt one of the best run events anywhere in the world and a very difficult one to win. A winner of this event could quite justifiably be an Australian Champion. I'll mention some considerations below.

Your third option is limited in detail. In some ways mirrors the first option if one or more KSA contests are used in the decision process.

All of the options have difficulties. 1. What if the winner is not Australian? 2. Should KSA be sanctioning a (series of) two/three day events to allow all and sundry to compete for an Australian Title (even if they don't want to?). 3. How are these options providing a vision for sustaining the sport at a grassroots level?

The club model has worked quite well and resulted in Gigs being selected to attend (and subsequently win) more than one world title. Yes, it disintegrated when the diaspora happened and too many of the driving forces left the country or committed to other things, but we were able to run pro contests at the club level, state titles and team selections and national titles. The money from club pro-ams also helped sustain club coffers. We in the lucky country have not had to deal with the kinds of disruptions that the political environment in South Africa threw up.

The "extra" layer already exists and simply needs to be activated. The (NSW) clubs already have a strong hand in steering the KSA, according to Smurf's post. Clubs allow democracy without the burden of having state representatives attend KSA meetings.

The clubs are strong - being driven by the people who are the mainstay of the sport - many of whom don't get to stand on the podium and accept accolades, but who are there simply for the love of the sport and the comeraderie. They are the "willing" volunteers spoken of in earlier posts. The ones who do more than honk, but sweat to keep the sport alive.

A club structure is also the breeding ground for future administrators of the national body (KSA). The hard working souls who put clubs together and who support clubs provide a pool of resources to enable KSA local efforts. They also provide a conduit whereby some of the support from Surfing Australia can be seen to be directly benefitting constituents (an aspect of the "transparent process" that Justin mentioned).

A club-based Championship system also encourages the formation of clubs. I know we in Vic would have got our act together a long time ago if this was our gateway to the Australian Titles. I'm sure it could stimulate club formation in other states.

If you made it this far, congratulations on your endurance.

Of course the question of having the Australian Titles as a well run event with professional judges is not answered by a layered structure, but the structure is where just such contests are born and bred. Contest directors, helpers, professional judges all get their training at a local level before progressing to bigger things. We have an incredible resource in Lukey and Jim and similar people for advice of how to put together a reputable titles contest or how to amalgamate it into an already successful contest. I'm sure we also have people waiting in the wings who might have fantastic skills to apply towards making such events even better. I'm less worried about the actual running of the titles than the equity and governance issues (who gets to compete and how they get selected to compete).

[jamie]

I'm less worried about the actual running of the titles than the equity and governance issues (who gets to compete and how they get selected to compete).

Red - kneelo events run by kneelos have always been open to all.
Why would we go to a selection process?
An all encompassing event with ample notice is surely the way to go.

luck
If you make the final and then get lucky you deserve it.
i made plenty of finals and caught a cold, so if got lucky and won one I claim it.

I think you viccos are amped at the moment with your club underway.
this is good!
Right now we dont need to complicate things, we have three contests that are open to all, we seem to struggle to get guys involved in organising these events, beyond the ususal suspects.
As i said earlier cut your teeth getting your club organised and then step up when your ready.
your a smart guy, but long term its committment(I gather you just made one ) that will keep competitive kneeboarding on track.
The US model is where we can learn i believe.

Concentrate on sponsors, fund raising and social activites and leave running and judging major(2 day) events to guys who do it for a living(part or full time).

[hart]

[quote]
Sorry DYdamo and Hart, but I for one think Splashy has raised some valid and very reasonable points here. Top help you guys see what I and maybe some others see in his post that you may be missing, I highlighted certain phrases in bold
/quote]

RMcKnee

Thanks for the effort mate,..and sorry for the slow response 24 hours is an eternity in internet life I know

So far (last count) I supported 2 posters as positive to this thread..and 1 that wasn't

And you don't have to remind me about comraderie on this site because I have seen much here over 5 years of constant participation..but thanks for doing so

Which leads me to my last post where I believed the poster was not giving respect to the title holders to whom he referred

It is that simple..if I was Farrer or Bitton, I would have been gobsmacked by the disposable comment made..but if you have a different view, to which you are duly entitled, that's fine

My view is opposite

This thread? Is great. I look forward to its growth and to its conclusions ..whatever they may be

hart

ps

Jamie..we have spoken before about the US model and you have it right (and so do they)

[RMcKnee]

In focus groups, forums and brainstorming sessions, the challenge is often to find the positive in every contribution.

Context is everything.

Splashy's subsequent post (about 10 posts back) clarified the matter of his respect for both the champions and made explicit what was perhaps "between the lines" in his initial post.

I'm sorry if you got the wrong impression. I have nothing but respect for those who have won certain titles.
I actually believe the KSA Title has more credit and balls than an Australian title. I also consider that a KSA event held in a state is much more credible than a State title.

This echoes views I've heard elsewhere.


According to COD

Camaraderie n. Mutual trust and sociability of comrades.

[DYdamo]

Mr McKnee
Yeah,
I read it.
and then re-read it.


And it's still a lame-arsed comment
dis-respecting the guy's who worked for what they got....

But then you let "kneejerk reactionary" go.........
Maybe you should quote the "Mantra" to some-one else

[jamie]

This thread has all the hallmarks of one started by Albert that led to 3 young guys from the US having the trip of their lives down to Australia just over 12 months ago.
It had the same false start with the thread starter spitting his dummy, when there was little debate earlier on, and then the two threads really took off.
I think there was a few forks in the road with crew not all going in one direction.
Lets not let another issue sidetrack or kill this debate, budgie might even comeback to join in - not sure if some of my barbs have dented his and reds enthusiasm.

On thread if you guys in QLD haves issue with the drive by me to focus on Victoria, then do something constructive about it.
In past years there was a focus on QLD for many years that was derailed by a serial transgressor. Thru all of this the viccos ran their own race and stayed on track with a great event that KSA has had to contribute little hands on effort towards ( the web links and entry forms on line do make ahuge difference in this modern world). The support of Ken from KSI these days , smurf and Rob by being at the event on the Island is all that neil and his crew of merry men need.

[Shelfbreak]

Jamie

You're drawing a long a bow to assume a few posters from Queensland suggest kneelos up here are offended en masse.

I was not privy to the issues associated with the 2002 Worlds but the ensuing fallout means it would have been difficult to reform a stand alone Queensland kneeboard club on the Sunshine Coast.

We have 12 kneeboard members within WindanSea boardriders - all over 30 (most >40). The club has reinstated a kneeboard division in its annual ‘Pa and Ma Bendall’ Memorial Contest since 2006. Craig Ashdown won it then, Baden in 2007 and Simon this year. The finals are usually surfed in front of large numbers of spectators and we have been delighted (and relieved) to have the likes the these guys and Glenn Bitton, Dave Parkes, Danny Lutjens, Marcus Hague, Pat Bright and other notables showcase high quality kneeboarding.

Our structure means it would be tricky to integrate our annual comp event with KSA and it is probably best seen as a useful adjunct to their circuit. So with my 'club organiser hat on' let me say positive things are happening up here and I will post some details of next year's Pa and Ma Bendall (14-15 February 2009) shortly.

Now here's my contribution. This thread is all about process - the objective presumably being to help improve the process and governance arrangements for organised kneeboarding and its relationship with Surfing Australia.

Well that's all great if we had a growing sport. To my mind our lack of juniors is the key reason why sensible people would think twice about taking on an management role in organised kneeboarding. In most sporting clubs - the driving factor for volunteers getting involved is fostering junior development. We don't have enough juniors involved to generate the momentum needed to develop and maintain the structures being discussed here for much longer.

It's possible that by locking ourselves away in kneeboard only clubs and comps we avoid having to regularly confront our collective lack of a future for the sport and hence the tendency to head off into introspective discussions like this.

Much credit must go to the KSA and PI organisers who have steadfastly committed their time to our sport when I'm sure they had many competing demands on their time particularly in regard to their kid's participation in other activities.

[albert]

We don't have enough juniors involved to generate the momentum needed to develop and maintain the structures being discussed here for much longer.

...and why do you think that is?

[Shelfbreak]

Albert

I sincerely wish I knew - but i am fairly sure it is probably not strongly correlated to the organisational structures of the KSA or otherwise.

My own hypothesis is that Simon Anderson is to blame. The thruster removed most of the advantage kneelos had enjoyed and built a reputaton on at key reefbreaks.