Drive and Fin Placement:

[willli]

sorry I missed the boat with my first comment, but the emphasis seemed to be on film. have you considered the rotational aspects of surfing and center of mass. I was respectable as a standing surfer and found that in cutbacks, especially short ones where you havn't outrun the curl completely the board would keep its hull speed, accelerate, around your body center of mass and snap into trim, lots of board speed but the body was almost paused, maybe visualize a skateboarder dancing through a set of linear cones, his head almost stationary but the board moving side to side like mad. I'm as gulity as any average surfer/kneeboarder of the top turn pause that starts as a cutback but waits poised high for the re-entry prefering the sweeping bottom turn, but standing that same pause would look like I was doing something as the board rotated underneath me. the same move kneeling, focusing on the center of mass, looks like a stop and pivot when in fact the same rail shift is happening, only the board doesn't have to travel underneath me. I loved the way the simpsons? were executing fin release slides where if it were me it would look like a lame pivot, though it wouldn't feel that way to me. don't misread me here, I kneeboard cos I love it, and I love the screaming cutbacks, but waves where we're tight to the pocket the whole ride cos the curl is relentless, top turn rail shift pause re-entry bottom turn set up cover-up works fin for me.

[wino]

I think Steen still has it right. All boards have their good and bad points. You just have to adjust your style to fit the good ones.
How a rider accelerates out of a turn depends on the riders commitiment to their rail during the turn. You've got to be comfortable keeping it on a rail the whole way around to get that speed. Once you go flat you stop and have to redirect. That's when the bogging occurs.

[red]

Bob,
I think some of what you see might be due to the "stabilised" three fin, rather than "thruster" fin setup many guys use. The typical Aussie equilateral triangle tri-fin setup is pretty tight for most guys so they prefer to run a small back fin to loosen it up a bit. This dramatically reduces the drive in top turns and cut backs. It speaks volumes for the quality of the surfers and designs that the boards have such good projection off the bottom and down the line.

I think there has been a bit more penetration of "thruster" setups (~equal size back fin) in the last couple of years so recent vids may provide a different picture.

Also I think that the cutbacks are being thrown pretty hard intentionally to burn off speed. When the turns are extended out onto the shoulder and then carved back you see acceleration towards the foam.

Remember - the further apart side fins are the more drive you get. So the concept of moving fins forward and spacing them wider doesn't come at much cost to drive over traditional 12 forward, 5" apart setups, but it yields a ton of other benefits. That's part of the brilliance of the "Aussie" design.

OT comment:
I think too many guys who don't push their boards to the limit spend too much time "customising" designs, to get the board to perform, rather than picking upon a proven design and learning how to surf it. As Steen says, it's the mark of the man to be able to adapt the knowledge to different boards. Up to a certain point boards are possibly less important than we think (except to get the warm fuzzy feeling of 'customising" our design)

[Beeline2.0]

..

[JackG]

OT comment:
I think too many guys who don't push their boards to the limit spend too much time "customising" designs, to get the board to perform, rather than picking upon a proven design and learning how to surf it. As Steen says, it's the mark of the man to be able to adapt the knowledge to different boards. Up to a certain point boards are possibly less important than we think (except to get the warm fuzzy feeling of 'customising" our design)

Um, don't you build your own boards?

[Bob]

Very interesting.

I started this post/discussion for a few related reasons.

First, my new board has a multiple fin set up and I took the trailing fin out on a small day and it became a totally different board.

Second, while discussing that day's surf with my shaper, he said that when you remove the rear fin, the board will still be good but it will be different because it will lose "drive".

Third, I noticed in some of the kneeboard movies that some guys boards were not cutting back like standup surfer's boards(The best kneeboarders were, but not every kneeboarder).

Very interseting responses. A good discussion will make you think and leave you with more questions than when you started.

[red]

Um, don't you build your own boards?

Ha ha - you're right on the irony. Stan Koefoed bagged me the other day when I said I pushed my boards to the limit to find their design limitations. Told me I was simply a softcock cruiser. He's right! I'll stick with a proven design from now on.
...damn frustrating to watch him get on one of mine and blow the hell out of waves I'm gagging on.

But seriously: I make one model that I've been fine tuning for a few years now based on my own and other (hotter) surfers input which means they've been driven hard, tried and tested. Machine shaping means I can manage fine changes fine with a high degree of acccuracy to further tune the design. I think the model R1 is almost ready to take on anythiing 3'-8'. Further tuning will be limited to materials (S Glass, styrene/epoxy and parabolic stringers).
..and if someone asks for one 1/2" narrower, 2" shorter or something I'll say "No - what colour? You can have any colour you want"
Next will be the grovel board and the gun. 2009 possibly.

Bob,
The variables are mind boggling. Most shapers arrive at a formulaic solution they like that puts them in their chosen range along the speed /manoeuverability continuum. There are always + and - factors. Change one thing and it's possible to create an entirely new animal. (well actually it's impossible to change one thing (like width) without affecting others - the relationships are simply too complex for us to know definitively what the implications of the design change will be.

[Bud]

Nice accellerating cut backs here

http://www.blasthawaii.com/vids/double_half.mov

and here...

http://www.blasthawaii.com/vids/mcg_lipbash.mov

should have bashed the soup harder..but I had the ful and had surfed Lances Rights all day....

[Bud]

I worked out a real good combo of drive and maneuverability 28 years ago with my 4 fins.

They have lots of drive and accellerate through the turns, yet remain very maneuverable.

You don't need to squirm and flail your arms and paddle to keep going.

They are very fun.

We still enjoy them.

[DYdamo]

Bud,

Of the two quotes

"ya learn something new everyday" to
"ya can't teach an old dog new tricks"
do you think you best subscribe to??
Mate, whilst I do respect your contributions to everything on this site,
your arrogance is unbelieveable...
what are you saying.........


you have'nt learn't anything new in 28 years????

Now let the fun begin

[Bumps]

Och!

[W.G. Facenda]

[Kauaikneelo]

How about: "If it ain't broke dont fix it??"

Bud's boards are tested in the proving grounds of surfing everyday! You can tune a formula one car all day long and only get a minimum unnoticable effect. But if you put a real driver in it (Gigs) you can win the race!!

This is a good palce for stupitee to jump in

[Kauaikneelo]

What..................nobody else got a 10 foot pole??

[Bob]

I know what Bud was trying to say. It didn't sound arrogant to me.