Why do we hate our own shapers so much?

[Bryn]

You've missed the various points altogether kneelingBrotha, everyone here will have at some point ridden other craft and most continue to do so with zero snobbery

You were given a kneeboard from a seriously generous soul. Ride it and stop rattling on about nothing.

PS. The Machado example doesn't really work.

Meanwhile, back on topic...

The Wax!
A very interesting read as always with lots of interesting bits to ponder. Out of curiosity who is shaping Nov's boards??? I take it that was the second none kneelo shaper you were mentioning? Remember seeing Matt post about them a while back but never really heard any more...

Very off topic, how did the recent show go Andrew? Will drop you a pm soon!

[kneelingBROTHA]

You've missed the various points altogether kneelingBrotha, everyone here will have at some point ridden other craft and most continue to do so with zero snobbery

You were given a kneeboard from a seriously generous soul. Ride it and stop rattling on about nothing.

You're just reiterating what the other guy said, without actually explaining the reasoning. Ride a kneeboard, rattling on about nothing, I'm not seeing the connection. Its not like I didn't ride the kneeboard, so I think you, budweiser and dorje aren't connecting there. I think I'm just getting flak for sponging alot. And if you're claiming there's no snobbery in terms of avoiding riding that craft at all costs on this forum...you'd be wrong.

I appreciate the kneeboard, I rode it a lot before I broke my leg.

Oh yeah, did you notice that I broke my leg? That kind of makes it hard to ride a kneeboard (or...anything) at this point.

Get over the kneeboard snobbery, and look at the big picture: I WANT TO BE A BETTER KNEEBOARDER BUT DON'T WANT TO RIDE IT IN ALL CONDITIONS, ESPECIALLY THOSE THAT DON'T SUIT IT.

Happy? Probably not, because I sponge.

[red]

Sometimes it's not a matter of hating a kneeboard shaper.

Personally, like Jamie, I would always prefer a kneeboard shaper because they're more in tune with the curves and riding position.

I've worked with some of the best shapers around over the past 33 years, culminating with Bruce Hart who I reckon was the best I ever worked with and I highly recommend him for his knowledge, technical skill and commitment to the sport.

Just came to a point whee I wanted to learn more about board design. Rather than having my ideas interpreted I wanted to make the hard decisions myself. It's been an interesting journey so far. I don't know whether my surfing's improved at all but I have a great deal of satisfaction evry time I paddle out.

Support kneeboard shapers. They know best. If you want what you want and go to a standup shaper, then be prepared to stand over the shaper and dictate exactly what you have in mind (like Wax said) otherwise you run a risk of getting a wide standup board. Or design it yourself, down to 1/8" and have someone else shape it.

[Headwax.]

Red wrote:

Support kneeboard shapers. They know best.

Whole heartedly - seconded!!!!!!

Personally I worked with a standup shaper on big concaves for a few years. He was a great craftsman. The boards flew.

Yet there was a fundamental flaw in the boards.

David Parkes and Slats (Drift) knew what that flaw was going to be (and how to ameliorate it) before they even saw the boards.
I'm sure Hart would have too.

The other thing I've noticed with most standup shapers is- they treat kneelos more as an antique curiosity, a secondary sole who isn't really a surfer, a kind of sideline to their business.

Certainly not in the serious way we deserve to be viewed.

Bryn,

Not sure who shapes Novokov's boards. I'm sure Matt did say a standup shaper's name, but my brain was full at the time

http://www.surfwx.net/images/Surfpics/KCC/DPP_0030.JPG on surfwx's website!

both these boards shaped by standups :

http://www.surfwx.net/images/Surfpics/KCC/DPP_0033.JPG

Novokov's boards: They're interesting, well crafted. I'd say the beauty of them was in the subtle, incremental changes that wouldn't be apparent till you'd ridden them.

in action (from surfwx's excellent w ebsite)
http://www.surfwx.net/images/Surfpics/KCC/DPP_0050.JPG

For example, I noticed that he'd left off the resin edge which is so popular here in Oz. He also had more tail kick than you normally see now days. (could be standup shaper epiphenomena - but I don't think so) which was linked to: nice tail curve planshape. Terry Fitz (graphite?) outside fins and one of those new "boingy" FCS plasticcomposite centre fins.

I was suprised( but happy) he'd gone with a through concave.

Then again, why should I be suprised? I know zilch about novokov except that he is a good bloke and a fantastic surfer.

I guess I thought everyone in Sydney (soon to be the whole planet?) rides a spiral vee

cheers

Kneelingbrotha

Hart used (still does?) to say "it's all good"
You know what?

It's true.

[toofast3]

I`m going to repeat myself here... Some of the boards I have were shaped by stand-up shapers. The other boards I ride, I shaped them. The guy that shaped my boards was a shaper from Dick Brewer(now he`s moved back to South Africa and not shaping any more). ALL my boards are 1 OF A KIND and that the way it will always be. Every board that has been made for me, a new templet has been madeYes I did spend a lot of time with the guy and thats because I want what I want. Not because I thought that he would do what he wanted,but, I wanted to learn what not to do. We discussed most everything. Plus I wanted to pushs HIS limits. At the end when I picked up my boards, he says he has alot of FUN shaping my boards because they`re different and they make me think and most of all, they`re fun to do!!

[kneelingBROTHA]

KneeloBro -- The guys are sharing a great deal of wisdom, and coming from the heart so don't feel rebuffed by what their saying.

I'll share a small example of the difference, it's not unique, many others have had the same experience.

Just this past weekend, my long time buddy who is a foot surfer finally tried out a kneeboard. He swapped boards with my son who was riding a Stub Vector.... he wouldn't give the board back!!

When we got to the beach and compared shapes -- He's riding a K-58 quad rounded pin, against the Stub. After experiencing the ride, and dynamics of the kneeboard he said he understood why the widths are different, fin placement different, rail contour different, etc ect.
-- He got it

So if a shaper who works on foot boards wants to build you a knee machine, I would check to see if he has a lot of friends who are kneeboarders, and/or kneeboards himself, otherwise you could be in for a very expensive experiment leaving you very unhappy with the results....

Peace

Martin

Actually, I completely agree with you that one should buy a kneeboard shaped by a kneeboarder, as long as that shaper is knowledgeable (like all major kneeboard shapers people know and love that they mention on this site). However, what started the tirades against me was this:

The never ending saga of one mans determination
better than the 'Truman Show'
Will KneelingBrotha eva' become a kneeboarder?
Stay tuned!
Since Nov 30, 2004. TM. All Rights Reserved.

It actually had nothing to do with my support of kneeboard shapers. Whenever I get another board shaped, yeah, it will be by a kneeboarder. Romo, Parkes, or Flashpoint...the Flashpoint feels great. Its a bit bulky but I know a pared down version would be perfect.

Basically, this thread got hijacked. I have nothing against kneeling shapers. At all. I would much prefer to support them over those that don't kneel, because they have firsthand experience, and that's what matters.

[kneelingBROTHA]

No worries martin...just making my case. I'm a journo major so I like being agressive in what I write. I don't take offense to someone kidding, or not kidding due to ignorance! Its all good!

[W.G. Facenda]

I know a couple kneeboarders making a great living making mostly standup boards.....or versa- visa?????

[bboyle]

Sorry to get back to the original question, but we hate them because they're close, tangible, and therefore hateable, and we can take it out on them. Whether they're good or not is based on experience, talent and keen ability to relate to the end user, whether they kneeride or not. Beyond that, it's mostly luck of the draw and the first few waves that you get on you're new one.

[john -]

No worries martin...just making my case. I'm a journo major so I like being agressive in what I write.

Kneelingbrotha, since Martin is being mildly motherly allow me to be somewhat avuncular.

agressive communication is devoid of ramble, emotion and defence

it is however, to the point (pithy) and often terse in style. It can also be multilayered.

I and I dare say Bryn and Budweiser are not considering your bodyboarding habits. You may have to read between the lines to understand our common point or points in common.


If you truly want to develop a hard hitting style I suggest you shack up with a quick witted women with a sharp tongue and spend more time in the kitchen with her than on the computer with 40something kneelos

[Bryn]

I have nothing but respect for any individual shaper who will put time, energy and knowledge in to the shaping of kneeboards. Even if their end product i wouldn't personally choose to ride they have come to their own conclusion for very valid reasons

[K-man]

Back on post[again]
Why would we hate our shapers?Unless.....Any one seen the latest surfjournal?Great article on owl chapman,ordering a board.giving the man too much money,then suffering the consequences of a looooooong wait :lol:Eventually got what he wanted.
But If it weren't for these classic shaper-surfer confrontations,We wouldn't have such a rich hilarious history,Got a classic story?let er rip!

[rooster]

I have a lot of respect for ANY guy that can take a blank and turn it into a wave riding vehicle, and not just "straight off adolph in the whitewater".

I predominately stand but when the back is stiff and muscles keep me from snapping to my feet, I switch to my knees, just so I can still enjoy the art of waveriding. I have 3 kneeboards, from 3 different shapers and feel lucky that each work in the conditions for which they were designed.

Instead of bitching about a shaper, why not work with him or her to develop the foil you desire, any relationship takes sharing of ideas and goals.

[john -]

.....I predominately stand....

....Instead of bitching about a shaper.....

just when a thread was seemingly outa sight outa mind along comes a predominately standup surfer to comment on how best predominanetly kneelo surfers should protect their own thin on the ground kneelo shapers.

Rooster catch up with the apprentice thread re hart and ross

kneelo discussion about shapers and kneelo shapers in particular is important to predominanetly kneelo riders

sorry to bitch

[rooster]

hey, sorry to ruffle your feathers, I just thought it takes more to be a kneelo shaper than a standup one. How many kneelo shapers put their shapes into the shaping commputer?

To qoute a wiser man; It's not what you ride, it's how you ride it.