Is the volume really necessary?

Lefty · Post by **Lefty** » Wed Sep 24, 2014 5:12 pm

crox wrote:...
What I'm trying to do is rationalize the amount of foam....why do we need so much more?
Is it because we collectively are an ageing bunch who have put on the pounds & are prepared to sacrifice performance for an easy paddle?
I'm trying to find out the reasons kneeboarders feel they need so much foam.

i don't agree that as kneeboarders we sacrifice any performance...quite the opposite. i consider the flashpoints i ride to be the highest performance boards around. it's standups that are sacrificing performance.

the trick to wide, short board with lots of volume is that it's critical the rails and rocker are very refined. kneeboards can't get away with having anything but a master shaper. standups with narrower, longer and less volumed boards can have less than optimal rails and rocker and still have a reasonably rideable board.

as for putting on a few pounds...speak for yourself, mate. i'm a bronzed hunk of lean, sculptured aussie muscle.

bigtony · Post by **bigtony** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 12:28 am

Any shaper worth his salt can provide volume and foiled rails all at the same time. Hiding the volume in the center point while tapering off and foiling down the rails is how Bruce and Buddy do it for me, ya just gotta ask for it. My boards are 60L and 6-3", 6-5", 6-7" and relative to me and my size and work with that set up.
I agree with Ed in that most people outside of Australia riding Aussie inspired boards don't rise them correctly or don't have them set up or customized to suit their style for how they surf and where they surf too.
I'll also agree that a minute amount of volume can me lost due to a full size deck pad, but not much. My pads from Casey are 3/8", nothing more so the volume factor really doesn't play there.
I prefer to pull excess volume out of the nose and tail where it's really not needed and focus on a foiled rail that will engage at the entry point and not at he back half of the board. Keeping the foam in the middle allows you to do this and not lose your paddling or duck diving ability.

My two pesos worth.

crox · Post by **crox** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:27 am

"as for putting on a few pounds...speak for yourself, mate. i'm a bronzed hunk of lean, sculptured aussie muscle."
Ha Lefty....I thought I would make it emotive to get a reaction!

Hopefully design doesn't stagnate. The process for me is understanding what each element does & then taking away anything that is superfluous.
Because something works it doesn't mean it couldn't work better.

Thanks for your input Tony, you said -
"Hiding the volume in the center point while tapering off and foiling down the rails is how Bruce and Buddy do it for me"
I can only see this as an aid to paddling....but I want to know how it enhances riding performance.

& eq said -" Where I see it helping is when waves back off then jack, or reform. Extra volume lets you stay with the wave."

Only the portion of the board that gets immersed will do that....& that is not much more than the rail...if otherwise, we would not want to disrupt
the flow with deck pads & our knees would act as huge brakes!

Two questions -

1 If you were to take a strip/block of foam out [say 100mm wide x 1m long, so that it drained out from the tail end] from between your knee positions down to the glass on the bottom, would it affect the performance of the board while you are riding it? [Purely from the point of view of the lessened volume]

2 Is less foam under your knees better for feel, control & power?

People often used to say [before kneepads] that compression dents created knee wells that made the board surf better...and footboarders say the
same.

Shelfbreak · Post by **Shelfbreak** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:02 am

After trying one of Kev's Strapper twin fins a few years' back I was inspired to buy a second hand one with a similar plan shape 5'10" 23" wide but with less foam - over 1/2 " thinner at 2 1/8 " from memory. Had trouble catching waves on the thinner one and kept getting caught up in the lip or dropping in too late.

Never given thickness much consideration until two frustrating sessions on that thin board. The difference for me was not been able to catch waves efficiently which can be an issue in crowds.

Lefty · Post by **Lefty** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:02 am

like eq, i really like the feel of the sweet spot under me, it's was the most obvious and exhilirating difference from the slabs. i guess that's why i'm so pro lots of volume in the middle (with thin nose and tails).

i have a narrow scoop deck board, from the pre-slab days. it would be less volume than today's kneeboards. but it has an enormous glassed in fin that produces so much drag. so i don't think it will be much good to try for comparison. maybe i should chop off the fin and puts some plugs in.

speaking of scoop decks...do you think the positive feel of compressed decks could come from lower centre of gravity, rather than less volume?

eqKneelo · Post by **eqKneelo** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:21 pm

Stoked Big Tony chimed in, becasue most of this is his fault!

Few years ago I was riding a 6'x 18" x 24.5"x 18" x 2 7/8" Flashpoint ChopTail.
Worked great small to fun sized OH waves.
It was the shortest and fattest board I had.
Then Will Perez called me (Will is up to demo anything and everything... Guy never stops tinkering with boards, fins, materials, ect) and says "I just rode Big Tony's Chop tail and you HAVE TO RIDE IT!"
I thought he was nuts, Big T and Hart had shaped him a 6'4"x 20" x 25.5" x 19.5" x 3.25" Chop Tail and there was no way I could make that work, but I said "Forecast looks average at best... Why not."
Next day I took it out in chest to shoulder high messy wind swell peaks.

I've never given it back.

Board caught anything and everything I paddled for... Paddled better than my longboard... And in crap waves it went unnaturally fast. It was like a long board where You feel like your flying in a waist high wave.
A wave could literally back off, and I'd still be cruising in flat water until it hit the shore break. I could do round house cutties in mush.
And the best part was... I learned to turn it. Like really turn it. Hit the lip, launched airs, rebound off anything.
But I had to focus.
Stance had to be back, knees as wide as possible, use the tops of my feet do pressure the tail, feed the rail to the wave, drive with my outside shoulder into the turn. Couldn't just squiggle-butt and hope the board turned.
Made me a better surfer and made me re-examine my quiver.

Now, everytime Big Tony is selling boards I implore guys to buy them.
"It's not a gun, it's your small wave board. It's for all those days your proper kneeboard feels like it just won't get up to speed. It will get you in the water and having fun when nothing else will."

And it makes you look at your quiver and reconsider boards that don't float you and that you could never catch waves on without fins.

After all that R&D, Bruce just finished my new one.
He MADE a 7'10"x26" high density blank and shaped me a
6'4.5" x 19." X 25.5" x 20" x 3.25" double bump area pintail with more foil and rocker than The Big Tony. (Cause i'm just a shrimp next to Big T

)
Can't wait.
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Tom Linn · Post by **Tom Linn** » Sat Sep 27, 2014 3:51 pm

I've been pondering this point for awhile. Why is it that your basic stand-up rides a board at 28 sq liters and is getting lots of waves be they large or small,while the average kneeboard is about 40 sq liters? In response to that question I've reduced my boards to 34 sq liters and my son, Chris', to about 31. Chris doesn't't wear fins and gets more waves than anyone in the water. We have found lower volume boards to be more responsive and quicker! And we don't feel like we give anything up in wave catching ability. That said, you can certainly achieve a similar result with the right rail and rocker combo for higher volume boards.

On every board I design I consider the ratio of the rider's weight to the board volume. A basic design consideration is to divide your weight into the board's volume for every board you ride. Then evaluate each board's performance and reconsider for your next board. That ratio is as important as board length, thickness, rocker and all the other key design features. Not knowing that ratio is like not knowing the board's length.

By the way, I don't accept that thicker boards go faster. If they did every pro and local ripper would be boards greater than 3" thick instead of the 2 1/4" potatoe chips they kill it on. Rocker and bottom contour are the greatest determinants of board speed.

eqKneelo · Post by **eqKneelo** » Sat Sep 27, 2014 5:15 pm

Tom-
Gotta factor in the waves energy as well. If the waves are weak, and you're over 200lbs, you better have foam or you're a buoy.

When I moved from OBSF to El Porto none of my boards worked anymore.
Boards that "ripped " in heavy DOH OB bogged badly in HH SoCal Windswell.

And you can't compare most Kneelos to ASP pros..
Or if you want to, watch Sparrow stand-up surf his kneeboard... He rips. Only guy who can stand or kneel and blow minds. His volume per weigh ratio is FAR above most pro.
But his boards are precision shaped.

Again, it's DOH, ride a spoon if you want. Waves energy will do the work and allow you to surf any way you want.
Waves are weak or have flat sections, you might need some help.

Tom Linn · Post by **Tom Linn** » Sat Sep 27, 2014 8:40 pm

Ed- I think we all would agree that the Sparrow and Bruce have the rail and rocker combo dialed in pretty nicely. I agree that if you are big and the waves suck then more floatation seems like it should be better. That said I rode a 4'10" x 2 1/2 thick mini Simmons awhile back (volume was maybe 24 sq liters?) That board was super easy to catch waves and planed up really quick in junk surf. There is a design lesson in there some where.

crox · Post by **crox** » Sun Sep 28, 2014 12:47 am

"Two questions -

1 If you were to take a strip/block of foam out [say 100mm wide x 1m long, so that it drained out from the tail end] from between your knee positions down to the glass on the bottom, would it affect the performance of the board while you are riding it? [Purely from the point of view of the lessened volume]

2 Is less foam under your knees better for feel, control & power?

People often used to say [before kneepads] that compression dents created knee wells that made the board surf better...and footboarders say the
same."

I was hoping for some answers as I was trying to establish a couple of principles.

The answer to 1 is that it wouldn't make any difference. So we have established that we can reduce volume without effecting performance when
riding.

The answer to 2 is yes...so we have established the principle that a thinner board under your knees is going to give you better feel, control
& power.
I noticed one of the commentators at the Quicksilver Pro yesterday said Kelly likes the thinnest amount of foam under his feet possible.

If the average kneeboarder tried paddling into a wave on the average performance shortboard he would be horrified at the difficulty.
We have become so used to a high volume board that when we reduce the volume we complain that it is hard work..... but we have established
above that the extra hard work might have a reward with it.

If you remove foam where it is of no hydrodynamic importance [while riding] & at the same time lower the centre of gravity you have a lighter board that is
easier to duck dive & gives you better feel, control & power.

The only thing affected is paddling performance.

So.....it might seem hard to catch waves but is that because we have become soft! Shortboarders just persevere until they have the ability to
catch waves...or they go the funboard route....which I tend to think is what we have opted for [to a degree]....& it has been a subtle trend that has been reflected
in our advancing years.

If we were mainly in the 16 to 30 age group I think we would see a lower volume in relation to our weight...as indeed Tom's son Chris has found.

So, when I said "Is it because we collectively are an ageing bunch who have put on the pounds & are prepared to sacrifice performance for an easy
paddle?" there might be more than a smidgeon of truth in it.
That is not to say there is anything wrong with it....fun is what it is all about & more waves = more fun......but the early kneeboarders were about true
pared-down performance & the minimalist approach with spoons [with abysmal paddling performance] set the surfing world on fire.

Have we settled for a comfy ride or are we going to stick the low profiles on?

kneehighdesigns · Post by **kneehighdesigns** » Sun Sep 28, 2014 2:19 am

I have found Volume to be the key for what i do and believe ! Taking a riders weight into consideration for the correct volume is critical in my determination of creating the right board for that rider. Our low center of gravity and fixed position in the rocker curve is our enemy , a stand up surfer can can spread his weight over a longer distance at will and change the dynamic to suit his needs for speed or turn ability , we as kneelos need the the rail and the tail to turn and this means being positioned more to the rear of the foil all the time otherwise our turn response would be slowed some what . The volume can stay the same but the boards length,width ,and thickness can change to get the same result EG ; thinner yet wider tail can give same buoyancy as a thicker narrower tail .I am currently building a board that's flatter than normal but in polystyrene/carbon no stringer so it will bend , its volume will be the same as if i was building it in PU but i will get more flotation from the polystyrene which is what I'm after for smaller days , too much flotation makes it hard for me to paddle into waves because Im floating too high in the water. You need to have some sink to be able to get into waves early and not get held up or stalling during take off. These are some of my thoughts on this subject ,I don't profess to be an expert in this field although i have made these observations from 30yrs of kneeboarding

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sun Sep 28, 2014 3:03 pm

Correct EQ; foam on stringer not on rails.
Hard to sink a thick rail, especially backside.
How 'bout da Bears yesterday; was there. They are getting better.

Tom Linn · Post by **Tom Linn** » Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:00 pm

I'm convinced that rocker and bottom contour have a big effect on wave catching ability. That mini simmons I rode had an almost dead flat rocker, huge dual concaves, and a super wide square tail. I could catch waves as good on that thing as on my full size board. It was outstanding planing over flat sections. Not good for turning however! I'm thinking about going outside my comfort zone and designing a mini simmons inspired kneeboard that will turn like my regular board but plane up super quick and glide over any flat spots in the wave. Think next generation for small surf!

red · Post by **red** » Sun Sep 28, 2014 6:00 pm

22"+ wide boards are pigs to paddle. That's why wide kneeboards have to be over volumed - you're trying to push a disk. Disks aren't streamlined.

By the way, I've been told by shapers who have tested it that boards around 32-34 Liters tend to be pigs, whether standup or kneeboard. Below and above that they seem to paddle relatively fine.

and a last thing to think about: How flat is your deck stringer?

eqKneelo · Post by **eqKneelo** » Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:32 pm

Bob:'GO BEARS

Sent you a PM. Talk soon