Fish vs fish (Classic old school vs fins fwrd new school)

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 3:06 pm

Lowrider wrote:Rob,

you have a pm

Andy

On the way to ya, Andy.

DrStrange · Post by **DrStrange** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:34 pm

Scott re: Blast and Mandala: Isn't one fins forward and the other more tailward? If so, do you find it easy to switch back and forth or takes some adjustment each time?

Matman · Post by **Matman** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:11 pm

. Steve Lis is making original fishes and modern quad kneeboards and standup fishes. You can now order a fish made by one of the fastest surfers of all time .The wait is most likely long but well worth it. His email is .. stevelisdesigns@yahoo.com

ScottMac · Post by **ScottMac** » Fri Aug 06, 2004 8:43 am

surfhorn · Post by **surfhorn** » Sat Aug 07, 2004 8:48 am

Old Fish v. new Fish is just a difference in technique. I've ridden many Fish over the years- both KBs and standups- and its just a matter of what style of riding one likes.

I've ridden for Freeline since 1971 so I've had the opportunity to ride a lot of boards as design development progressed. The main focus has to be fin placement v. board length. I rode Fish in the 5'5" range (Fish were my 'second' board to my trifins with a 12" center flex fin) in everything from 2 foot Sewer Peak to 15+ foot waves at Ship Wreaks in Baja Sur....they did the job well.

John has always nailed the Fish design, whether it be the original keel fin template or a quad set up (KBs & standups). John & I experimented with the fin-forward quad back in the mid 1980's but went back to traditional Fish. Today, with the increased length in boards, he's putting out some nice fin forward quads that are rocking.

After my time this year on a 6'0" quad/five fin, I'll never go back.

DrStrange · Post by **DrStrange** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 7:02 am

Surfhorn:

After my time this year on a 6'0" quad/five fin, I'll never go back

That'd be a fish? Fins forward? Isn't different rocker necessary fins back vs fins forward?

Long as I'm picking brains and don't have opportunity to test ride at this point, what is the diff in how ride forward and rearward fins? Aside from where your knees are planted on the board? (Another thread, Beeline mentioned leaning back for more speed in tube on Classic fish. He attributed increase speed to engaging concave more but also my experience w/ same rocker on stand up (single fin eggs) that flatest rocker hence least drag at tail...)

willli · Post by **willli** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 7:49 am

Scott,
Bud makes a smaller trailer set. Drop him a line and he'll supply the details. I have em and use em in my Blast fish. They do a good job of taking some of the bite off and there's no loss of speed.

DrStrange · Post by **DrStrange** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 8:50 am

If anything, smaller trail fins should reduce drag slightly and increase speed?

what is the diff in how ride forward and rearward fins?

Another way to ask this--used to ride single fin hull/eggs.l Put in extra long box and moved fin forward and back to change how board handled. Back=turn from tail more, shorter radius turns, more pivoty feel, longer 'straight lines' between arcs. Forward=lot of rail in water in turns, bigger arcs with shorter 'straight lines".Is this sort of answer to my question? (Forward=long arcs short straights. Rearward= shorter arcs, longer straights)

DrStrange · Post by **DrStrange** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 12:59 pm

Back=turn from tail more, shorter radius turns, more pivoty feel, longer 'straight lines' between arcs. Forward=lot of rail in water in turns, bigger arcs with shorter 'straight lines".Is this sort of answer to my question? (Forward=long arcs short straights. Rearward= shorter arcs, longer straights)

Hmmm, just rewatching that fish @ J-Bay video linked from another thread and there's quite a few long arcs and roundish cutties on fin to the rear boardss....so??????

fisherrat · Post by **fisherrat** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 1:38 pm

I got a copy of my old fish. Mind you I have been riding fishes since 1975. The 5'6 fish does not feel right anymore since I have been riding the bigger OZ boards. Floatation on the fish is not as comfortable and easy; much harder to catch waves too.

I enjoy bigger and wider boards.

Bryan Jackson · Post by **Bryan Jackson** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 1:53 pm

“I have a classic 1973 Lis inspired fish shaped by protege Jeff Widener I have had success in really anything over two feet with this template. Its true it takes on a new dimension in overhead surf but FISH were really designed as a cure-all for typical California summers…” - Budman

Sorry, but that is a historically incorrect statement.

Steve Lis' original intention with the Fish was not to create a board that would perform well in small weak, summer surf, but rather in effect, to create a ‘double pin tail’!

Although he liked the pintail's speed and ability to hold in hollower waves (of whatever size), he had a problem with his swimfins hanging off the sides of his board creating drag. (We’re talking really narrow, not rounded, pintails here, and in those days there was much less swimfin variety available, so KBers were pretty much limited to large clumsy Duck Feet/UDTs or extremely flimsy, powerless pre-Makapuu Churchills and flipper drag could be a real problem.

)

Anyway his solution was to cut a pintail in half and glue the two back halves together, only reversed. (Of course, this is an oversimplification of a much more involved process, but it is easy enough to see the basic logic behind his idea/experiment).

The wider tail would now accommodate his swimfins and keep them from dragging over the sides of the board while still functioning as a pintail. It also had the added (and unforeseen) benefits of greatly increasing the speed of the board.

The twin keel fins, which complimented and further improved the Fish design, came along shortly afterwards and were designed by Larry Gephart (a friend of Lis).

The first standup rider on a Fish was Jeff Ching (another friend of Lis) who took it out more as a sort of joke/challenge and only then was its performance potential as a standup board design accidentally discovered.

This all took place (mostly) at Sunset Cliffs in San Diego, a reef break (actually a series of reef breaks) well-known for its large, powerful waves, especially in winter swells. Later it was quite succesfully ridden at macking Big Rock by Rex Huffman et al.

Eventually (standup) Fishes became associated with small, weak summer surf, but that came much later and was definitely not the intention behind its original inception.

surfhorn · Post by **surfhorn** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 8:34 pm

DrStrange - My 6'0" is a round pin. Last summer I rode a 5'10 Freeline quad fish when I got back into KBing.........the same board that a few riders used at Nov.'s US Championships here in Santa Cruz.

The 6'0"s quad set up gives the board that fish feel but the fifth (center) fin gives me that thruster feel I love. But I have more experiementing to do with various fin combos (and templates and tail shapes) to say that this is the the holy grail of KBing.

A good El Nino year here in California will give us all the testing grounds necessary to try out new boards. Bring it on !!!!!!!!!!!!!!