Ask the Shaper (or Anyone who wants to answer) (Vol. II)

[red]

I'm riding a board I got from Matt G that has tons of tail kick (lift in the last 8") I'm struggling to get it moving around without stopping and starting. I think it's the tail kick that's doing it by influincing the way I turn

[crox]

Hi Headwax

You asked - “Anyone got any ideas on this?

Rocker design and specifically : a) relatively flat sections and b) tail lift.”

It is a question I have been putting a lot of thought & time into!

Tony Bonner & I have started the “Offbeat Surf Company”. We have so much shaping talent here & so many ideas to run with, it seemed like the logical thing to do.

And now we can play!

We have got Errol Hickman [a superb South African shaper] who shaped boards for Gigs, living a few miles away, shaping some beautiful boards for us & Chris [Bro] Diplock with his Friar Tuck [with Albert Whiteman] heritage. Bro shapes around 800 footsurfer boards a year – just to keep his hand in, for his passion - to shape kneeboards – he is also a great kneeboarder.
It’s good to have two different approaches to spark off each other!

What a great time to be a kneelo!
We have been so impressed by Hart’s boards & his input & enthusiasm – what a time to feast at the table – with a spread [in the UK] including Parkes & Flashpoint.
I would love to see Earthrise again [I have an image Of 60s & 70s album covers when I think of those boards!]

So - back to your question! –

I have been looking a lot more at the attitude a board adopts when sitting in flat water.
The boards we are shaping are closer to the water in the nose with a very easy entry – no pushing water – with an increased tail lift.
These boards go over white water easier than those with a lot of nose rocker because the increased tail rocker allows it to rise up without having to force the tail down into the water – in other words if you put the board on the floor & pressed down on the tail the nose would go a lot further into the air than a board with an increased nose rocker & less tail lift.
The advantage of this design really comes into play if you surf leaning forward [like Simon – notice how his head is almost always in the same position relative to his board & how little his body position changes through manoeuvres]
You surf with more emphasis on the forward portion of you board – which is naturally faster with such an easy entry rocker – you keep the motor running through turns. It also will allow the nose to lift up in steep drops – paddles well & when surfed on rail turns quickly with the tail lift.

Hope this makes sense.

Crox

[red]

Crox,
Say hi to Errol for me. A fine shaper. You're lucky to have him.

Good luck with The Offbeat Surf Company.

[hart]

crox

what a good post..and everything you said made sense and sounded similar to my ideals and thoughts.

headwax however, seems to want to head down the straight-tail approach with big noselift which is somewhat in the opposite direction.

but for a guy who surfs off his tail its not such a bad idea.

my 2 pennies on this, is this..

since 2000 OZ shapers have been shaping 2-stage rokers (as opposed to the 3-stage rockers of the 90's).

Easy entry 'in' and all release once it does. In and then Out. as quick as you can.

So..

once your roker is sorted (simple isn't it ..) think about the actual bottom shape.

knowing headwax (as I actually, don't) I'm sure there will be a concave of MASSIVE proportion..

but maybe he'll consider this.

as you shape your bottom contours (think Steve Artis) imagine the actual path the water (at speed) will take along the length of the blank.

you can 'direct' the water to specific places by using concaves and convexes..

so i guess what I'm saying is rocker is one thing..but 'shape' and 'contour' is something quite else..

and something just as important.

hart

PS

Kyle's noses always look overproportioned coz the are very wide (18" @ 12" back) and he kneels WAY back and he is surfing loong boards. Nothin under six foot and his 6' 5" is now his favourite (don't forget he is 6' 3")

Matt's tail was lifted a little more than Red's because it was shaped as a semi-gun..whereas Red's bards (of similar length) are shaped for him as shorties.

[john -]

Hi Crox

im putting on my teachers hat and my im married to a communications writer's hat

that is the clearest explanation ive read on theories and practical results re board design ever and since hart agrees.....thats a major stamp of approval given your talking about simon's style and boards as well.



when I am able to go to a shaper for a new board i will make sure I read that post again

and thanks to headwax for putting this pot on the stove

ive now got the clearest picture in mind of my design needs


dorje


dorje

[Jon Manss]

HI to all in this discussion,

Headwax I have noticed and experienced two very distinct styles of riding. One is the forward stance of a Simon and the other is the more upright position and lean back on the rail of many riders here in Santa Cruz. I know there are many variations in between but I think these two styles are the extremes.
It has been my pleasure to work with Bruce in an effort to understand the "new forward style, for me" and have learned a lot about my board and the way I ride it by riding his shapes. Yes Bruce I jump on one of your boards whenever I can. What I have found is the two styles require different shapes and the point of attack or the driving position directly effects the rocker. Now for the fun part. Let's see if I can describe my rocker as well as Bruce and Crox described theirs.
If you drive off the center of the board and lean a little back through your turn you are riding the more upright position. What I like to feel underneath me is the planing of the board accelerating as the the compression of the turn is right underneath my shins, or between Knee and ankles. This part of the rocker is flatter than the rest of the board.
As the board releases out of the turn , or I unweight off that turn I want more rocker in the end of the tail. If you think of rocker as a function of a Parabolic curve with extra release at the tail you will see what I'm trying to describe. A parabolic curve has a tight radius at the beginning, the nose, and tapers or stretches out as it progresses back. The whole idea is to place the maximum planing area under you most aggressive compression region. This is why I think we have some great styles that need different methods or designs to best compliment their needs. How'd I do Bruce? You always make things so clear to me does this make sense to you?

[hart]

Hey Jon

I think you did a great job..you know I often describe the curves I try to create, similarly.

I consider hyperbolic curves however, rather than the parabola.

Yet in the context of this post..we are talking exactly the same thing..

Your observation about styles is also cool..I'm afraid I am very one sided there but.

I strive for the drive that comes from low body positioning..even in top turns. Low makes you go.

And I know that has influenced what I do to a very high degree.

Now, if I could just get to surf one of yours.. ..ha

bruce

[red]

the double concaves feeding out the back will increase the tail rocker

How you going to achieve this, bearing in mind that you need vee in the tail to get double concaves? And you probably want to go flat in the last few inches of the tail
I'm just suggesting that you plan the tail kick into the stringer line and dont expect it to arise from the spiral vee

By the way, the board I mentioned above (with tail kick) races around sections like none other - take off 30-40' too deep, lay into a bottom turn (yes, leaning forward into it) and the board goes like the clappers and whistles around the crashing lip. I guess this is the mini-gun in it coming out. Have to ask Bruce how the tail kick may relate to this result.

[hart]

[quote="red

By the way, the board I mentioned above (with tail kick) races around sections like none other - take off 30-40' too deep, lay into a bottom turn (yes, leaning forward into it) and the board goes like the clappers and whistles around the crashing lip. I guess this is the mini-gun in it coming out.

Have to ask Bruce how the tail kick may relate to this result.

[/quote]

It has to be the way the tail lift allows the 'forward' portion of your rail to enter..I think.

It has to help entry off the deckline of the rail.. (in fact just the way crox described it earlier)

straight bottoms don't let your rails sink coz they overpower the energy you create and make you stay flat. and the faster you go the more it happens. and the raeson why guns (think BIG waves) are not straight

if you want to stay low and let your rails work toward another dimension then don't have deadstraight bottoms.

and I guess by that..I am wanting the surfer to do a little searching for themselves.

However tempting (for speeed) a straight line might seeem.



hart

PS

wax

concaves can straighten rail-line curves and let water flow the fastest route..wherever u want (or think) that to be. at least that's what I do with them.

b.

[Xmas]

I read all of the design talk on this site with great interest. But I must confess that I only understand about 1% of it.

BUT there is hope... Sparrow confessed to me the other week that he doesn't really understand it either. Made me feel better.....

[scoop]

Guy's

I know I am asking a big question ...but do i KNEED a longer board for Hawaii ????? ... my longest board now is 6'0" ... but I love my 5'10"... I am NOT looking at surfing mountains... but after Fiji's 12' faces a couple of months ago maybe the power alone could send me up a few more inches?????
I do have a wife and an excess of boards to concider???? HELP...

Tony