Kneeboarding At 3 G's

[Man O' War]

808, maybe you could explain a little further. But are you sure you want to change the handling characteristics of this?

[AM_Glass]

Hey MOW,

Am I correct? Are you getting into the shaping business? What are you charging for boards? I promise lots of feedback, maybe we can get a (older, slower weaker) Curren/Merrick connection going and start a revolution in surfboard design. I don't think I'm gonna be able to cut one myself but would offer feedback. I figure I could keep myself busy and interested just surfing different waves or changing the fin around. It would be awhile before I'd consider a board off a different mold.

BUT, for those that want it smaller, couldn't you just "trim" the excess once you've popped the new off the blank?\

Keep the stoke!

[Man O' War]

Glass,
Always good to talk to you, especially since that special day of bloody bonding at Stockton.

I think the mold could be used for smaller boards by doing what you said, shortening the foam rails and trimming a couple of inches off the back of the finished product. That still leaves you with a width problem. That could be solved by cutting a 2" center strip from nose to tail and putting some sliding tracks on the back of the mold. You'd have a sort of table leaf arrangement--remove the strip, slide the halves together, cover the crease in the hull area, and you've got roughly a 5'3" x 22".

Am I in the shaping business? Yes and no. Time permitting, I'd like to make a couple spoons a year. I'd like to put them into the hands of guys in their 20's or younger, because you guys are all poor. I think I'd make them at cost and then designate a special cause for a donation, leaving the amount up to the person.

The next board is going to cost $375 for materials, which is $100 more than the black one, because I'll be using s-glass and epoxy. That cost is probably not going to change in the future.

You guys need to test Scott's board, though, and find the weaknesses.

That's how things stand. I keep waiting for the professional cavalry to ride in, but this just continues to be an individual backyard thing by guys like Terry Hendricks, Troy Atkinson, Dr S, Mark Miller, Derrick Madison, George Dayland, myself and I'm sure some others.

So keep me in mind.

[Scott]

The mysterious Veder Spoon will be at the Big Sur Gathering in two weeks for any and all who would like to give it a go! If the swell is head high, then this craft will begin to come alive.

See ya there!

MOW, great posts and reposting of the pic sequence that, in my book, is absolutely awe-full!

[808]

MOW, wouldn't want to change a thing. One of the guys had mentioned the hull in less powerful waves, the bog, and my thought was the keel would provide lift on smaller days.
I'm a hull fan.

[DrStrange]

GG went to edge boards to help overcome the bog in lesser waves. Emphasizes the planning flat and separates it from the rounded chine. Pictures coming soon...

If keels I might prefer two, at the rails fish-like for smaller waves. Or even quads like more modern fish. I think in juice you'd get best control w/ single fin, probably more speed to if high aspect (deep and skinny).

Problem w/ cutting slice out of center of mold for narrower board is you'd have chines shaped as for wider one. Maybe too round of a bottom. (Though how that could ever be I'll never know. ) To really get it right I think likely need a different mold for each size. Been looking at my shaped blank w/ eye for next board and seeing how little foam is there left to work w/ but even more, how everything is tied to everything else; change one dimension and all others need to change at least a bit to keep similar charactieristics. Fer instance, was thinking of changing chine width in tail. Can't see how to do it on my shaped blank w/out changing rocker which will change hull depth and rail line...

[Man O' War]

808, I see where you were going--overcome bog by increasing drive, right? But you sacrifice maneuverability and stability. I think S is right, that GG's answer was not to modify the fin alone but to go to a whole new form, the edge board with runners/strakes, based on the keel idea. Come to think of it, Nat Young rides a full-on keel board in Crystal Voyager and Greenough is already riding a transitional board. Maybe Nat was an influence, or vice versa.

As far as hull, I'm not a fan yet. I'm still wondering why GG put so much hull in there. Enlighten me. Isn't the idea of variable rocker to have something that can drive flat whenever it's not flexing? Doesn't that apply as much to the nose area as to the tail? Isn't all that hull a contradiction?

I like the idea of having a 5'6" that has as close to 5'6" of flat planing area as possible but that can become 5' or 4'6" (via flex) in the pocket, the turn, or whenever necessary. Same goes for width. The trick is finding the balance between total flexibility and the rigidity necessary if you want to ride on your knees. (If you're riding prone, a mat is the answer.) Right now I choose to reduce kick and hull as far as it looks safe to do so, put the rigidity right under the knees rail to rail and taper frontward and backward from there. But it's all theory. Only testing will tell.

[808]

i couldn't tell you why, but at the time, due to the cost of research, much of our board technology came from the boating industry. They had money to spend on fastest planeshape/outline and so on, that the surf industry didn't. So we borrowed.

A mat is my next craft, i'm going to bite the bullet and get the really good one i've seen. the guy that makes them sounds like a grem when he's talking about it, how stoked is he?

[Flexman]

.

[Man O' War]

"The guy that makes them" is going to turn out to be one of your best friends. Dale gives great service and makes quality stuff. The only thing is, the line is long--that's why. Even Greenough buys from him.

[red]

Pardon the interruption:
I watched Crystal Voyager again on the weekend. To my eye GG's black and white board looks a foot too short. He spends a lot of time arching his back and sitting on his ankles trying to keep the nose up. He pearls on a number of occasions after driving off the top.

Seems to me that there are few disadvantages to adding length. It will compensate for the lift given by the wide tail and it's unlikely to tighten the board up significantly. It will still pull up into the pocket yet will connect flat spots in the wave better.

Interested in your experiences.

[W.G. Facenda]

ur forgetting is GG was 5ft 5 and maybe 135 lbs. A six ft spoon for you maybe ,but not that skinny guy. I watched him in 10 ft Razors and big Rincon and he was the best guy in the water and made that footage in CV look lame. I think you could also run into the problem that many toooo loooong boards get into and that's board slapping. Just slapping and not carving.A board can be too long and many are.

[Man O' War]

John, what was he riding? In CV I think the problem was the board coupled with the small waves. I agree with Red--he was struggling. Maybe when you saw him, he'd moved on to something more effective.

[W.G. Facenda]

When I watched him at Rincon it was big and bumpy with a ton of push down the point. Those spoons really turn on with alot of push , thin boards work good at Rincon.Honolua bay , Kirra waves like that. Otherwisw, it seems he's nursing it along ,like Red said. Oh yeah, this was around 1980 or so and he was riding a black & white, about 5ft , carbon fiber, edge board.

[red]

In looking at Bob's (RW's) collection of spoons, including an original Hayden, I was surprised at the amount of spooning in the nose. The whole nose area (bottom, of course) was rounded before blending into side to side roll into flat then slight (sprung) concave. This is sort of like blending a sphere into a curve into a flat into a reverse curve, but the entry line from nose to midpoint along the stringer is not really subtle and the entry line along the rails even less so.

Seems to me that we've learnt a bit about entry rocker in the past 15 years (since rockers became more refined) and there is scope for updating the design to less radical transitions that promote smoother water entry yet retain the resistance to pearling that the original design intends. I think that smoother entry combined with a little more length could make the boards less prone to stop and start and allow them to go fast in less powerful waves (because they will be less inclined to push water)

If someone has the time and energy to measure an original (or even modern) spoon I'll post pics comparing the spoon to a modern board entry.

If you can supply measurements
1. from the tangent to the bottom up to the rocker line every, say 6' along the length of the board
2. at 6", 12", 18", 24", 36" from the nose along the rocker line measure the height above the rocker of the bottom deck at 2" intervals to the width of the board.
I'll put the measures into design software and produce some pictures of rocker line and slices through the board that show the bottom contour.

The benefit of having this data is that the bottom can be subtly modified and made to look right before being cut by a shaper. The bottom can be glassed and the top of the blank routed out before laying up the top deck.

In this way it will be possible to continually evolve the design, rather than using plugs to produce duplicate of a single model.
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