Kneeboard guns

[red]

HW,
Thanks for your comments. You've helped me to decide to tack on my next set of fins rather than use a fin system so I can change them/move them around.

Humble apologies for implicating you as a whinging kneeboarder. It was not the intention.

I think I'll go for a walk. I may be quite some time.

[hart]

So what does constitute a gun?

AB

Your six-o isn't really a 'gun'

It could be called a semi-gun for sure, but true guns (in my mind) weigh in around 6' 8" and bigger (and I've shaped to 7' 6")

And your observation about riding this board in smaller waves is accurate..

Just because a surfer chooses a little more length than usual, doesn't mean the shape has to hinder that decision and only work when its double overhead in wave-size

Length need not, come at the expense of performance

Providing your shaper has the desire to explore length, in his heart as well as his head

hart

[ross]

alright
now that i've been pointed in the right direction in regards to rocker.i got another question.(i could be pushin my luck with this one )

from what you guys are saying i should be able to take my rocker stick from my 5'10" and providing i guage the positioning correctly on the blank this will determine my rocker over the full length of the board?

if that is the case i guess its trial and error to get it right.(for me that is)

on the topic of rail profile,i keep my rails low and soft with my edge becoming hard a few inches before the front fins.this doesnt change in all my boards big or small.
i was wondering Red when you said you were planning on having boxier rails,would that make your board overeactive to chop or ledges in the wave face?in regards to turning might a blocky rail might be a little harder to sink into the wave face?

Bruce
sick shots of Gav Coleman.mate that 7"6" is planing really nicely.is he positioned further up the board than normal?it doesnt look much longer than a board in the late 6foot range.
he's really having a dig over there isn't he?(engaging rather than surviving one might say )one of my mates told me next time he goes to Puerto he's gonna stay in Hawaii for a while on the way so he'll be fit and brave enough to surf Puerto when its big
this thread has been good fun eh?
Ross

[Headwax]

Red

Thanks for the apology. I've been a bit sensitive since my GP told me my lithium tablets were suppositries. You think he would have told me before. No wonder they tasted like s*&^. But while you are out in the snow, remember not to eat the yellow stuff.

I know fin boxes are not de rigeur. But maybe use 10 inch boxes for the first board. You can still set at em an angle. Use a belt sander to grind them down where they stick out on the stringer side. Surround them with four layers of masking tape first so you don't get sand throughs.

Second board you won't need boxes.
Unless you change a parameter.

[hart]

Bruce
sick shots of Gav Coleman.mate that 7"6" is planing really nicely.is he positioned further up the board than normal?it doesnt look much longer than a board in the late 6foot range.

Ross

When I shape guns..I consider adding tail rather than nose..

That way, you still ride the same board..only longer AND with more rail

(read..the widepoint hasn't moved)

he's really having a dig over there isn't he?(engaging rather than surviving one might say )

It can be anything you want it to be

Don't ever let your equipment hold you back

The market is in fact, led from above (the surfer)..not the other way around



hart

[ross]

Bruce
interesting comments allround.especially considering you start calling boards guns in the 6'8" range onwards
it kills me to think how big the waves are that some of the boards discussed are being ridden .is the 7'6" specifically designed for survival turns,getting down and out to the shoulder?
Sickening.(in a good way )
hey while we're at it whats the signifigance of the trident fork on Simons boards?seems like he's been running them on his sticks for years.
Ross

[red]

Ross
RE Blocky rails.
I guess there is blocky and there is very blocky.
My idea is to move the point of transition from down rails to forward of the fins. This has the effect of pulling the down rails further up the board.
I'm doing this to overcome the corkiness I've noticed in many longer boards (watch the DVD's closely) where the board doesn't want to hold a rail line (especially in bottom turns) because the forward rails keep riding up out of the water. The board sheds speed as the surfer compensates. (of course it could just be fin problems, but I don't think so).

But the further forward down rails (with a bit of added thickness from the flattened deck roll), subtle as they are, are likely to provide more lift under trim - something I want in boards that allow me to get onto hectic waves - the speed to get out of trouble.

I never worry about sinking a rail. I can bring about half my 75 pounds to bear 4" from the rail - ain't a board that can withstand that vast weight. I believe that problems with rail sinking point more to rocker, bottom and plane shape than rail thickness (although, of course, all are intertwined).

Yeah, Bruce, the trick is in getting a longer board but still having the low point of the rocker under the surfers weight point. Since the length from knee to ankle is fixed, it's tricky to get the board long without drawing out the tail relative to the wide point and fins. Well that's what I've figured out, anyway
See how far forward Gav is on the tube shot - he's not intending to turn anytime soon!

[Beeline2.0]

..

[ross]

hey Martin,
seems to me we all have differing views on when a board changes into a gun.
my take on it is more to do with planshape and foil than boardlength,although i think upwards of 6'1" boards start to lose their functionality in average waves.a reduction in tail area is a factor as well rounded pins seem to be the tail of preference and i've never owned a gun without one.i know Dale Ponsford has a swallow or two in his bigger boards.but the do look like rounded pins with a swallow cut into it.

i just had a funny memory.
when i was about 15 before i knew about guns (or anything else for that matter).the old man and i decided to surf some very solid(10ft+) Avoca point.
the tail area and thickness of my standard short board was making for some interesting drops and horrendous skipping along the face.
the horizon went black and the crowd on the point were on thier feet screaming.
so you can imagine we all started to sprint for the outside.
as it happens dad was already outside kicking his flippers against the current,he was in the spot when the first one reared.
he stroked confidently into the apex of the peak,flippers like a rooster tail out the back end.i'm looking thinking yeah fellas check the old man out.
then it all went south.
sidewash from the rockface on this break creates a wedge effect at this size which never seems to reveal itself until your already comitted.

as i have mentioned before dad and i have played around with tail area etc for years and at this time we were getting a little extreme(think mccoy lazor zap).

the combination of this board design and a 4x overhead wave face were not good.
i dont think he left a track in the face for the first 10' of the drop
when he connected with the face the extra tail contributed to zero penatration.
all this resulted in his body bouncing no less than three times on the way down the face and resting just below the surface of the trough
and a nice little trip back to the top of the wave to do it all again.

and that my friends was the last time he surfed in solid conditions

ask him to tell that little fable himself.the wave is now 15ft and rising

[W.G. Facenda]

I always read your post Ross! Great stuff always! Toby told me his version of riding Waimea on a 6ft Lis in the early eighties. I think it was 3 waves . Taking off and freefalling 3 stories-3times! Bud knows the story.....?

[red]

This leads to the rail shapes you guys have described, as well as widths that rather narrow in comparison to "standard" boards.

Standup guns are wider, so why should kneeboard one's be narrower? I can think of no benefit to narrower kneeboard guns. The tail can still be pulled in and vee'd to prevent the hop, skip and bump.

Rather than width, I think the key question is whether there is a functional limit to the length a kneeboard?

[hart]

is the 7'6" specifically designed for survival turns,getting down and out to the shoulder?

Ross

The 7' 6" you are talking about from Puerto was not made for the waves in which you see Gavin surfing. The waves simply, weren't big enough to justify that sort of length.

I hasten to add however, how accomplished the surfer was to adapt such a board, to such a wave in such dynamic fashion. Gavin is a true water-man (but more about that later)

When that 7' 6" was built, Gavin's brief to me (he was living in Margaret River West OZ at the time) was to create a board that would allow him to be photographed riding the biggest waves of a kneeboarder..

"Ever captured on film.."

We then mutually decided upon its length

Those pics haven't yet happened..and of course, only time will tell

And yes, guns seem to breakout around the 6' 6"-6' 8" mark in my view and go up (noting that standard kneeboard blanks from Dion Chemicals max out at 6' 5"..meaning blank availability strongly influences my thinking)

The (length) limit?..well after talking heaps about things with Gav when he got back (and watching video footage) at least I know this

It isn't 7' 6"

hey while we're at it whats the signifigance of the trident fork on Simons boards?

Ross

You would have to ask Simon for the specific significance (as such), but the Trident you are talking about was the tool (and symbol) of Poseidon, King of water (both fresh and salt) in Greek Mythology (later known as Neptune to the Romans)

Fitting hey?

Yet another true water-man..and kneeboarder



hart

[Bud]

Hart said....

When that 7' 6" was built, Gavin's brief to me (he was living in Margaret River West OZ at the time) was to create a board that would allow him to be photographed riding the biggest waves of a kneeboarder....."Ever captured on film.."

We then mutually decided upon its length

Those pics haven't yet happened..and of course, only time will tell

That could be so easily accomplished here on the North Shore, especially during the months of December-January- February.
(shhhhh don't tell anyone, but there's been a bunch of kneeboarders seen here during the last 3 Februarys.......some with cameras even.)

Beyond Waimea (and the hoards surfing it), there are a vast array of outer reefs available to choose from.
It's mostly the playground for the tow surfers these days.
But the jet ski assisted crew is required by law to stand down when there are surfers paddling into waves.
(Yes there are some who do that. )

I've got friends who love nothing more than to paddle out from the beach at Rock Piles (just South of Pipeline) to the Log Cabins outer reef for a frolic, when it's proper Hawaiian 25-30'.
(The shorey is just lovely on those days )

They are always happy to have more guys to do it with.
(They are'nt worried it'll get too crowded. )

Hart said....

The (length) limit?..well after talking heaps about things with Gav when he got back (and watching video footage) at least I know this

It isn't 7' 6"

Too true.
A giant board really does help a surfer paddle into a giant wave.
There's no limit to the length of a kneeboard one could put to this use.

There are a couple Dick Brewer 10' 6" guns lying under my house that anyone is welcome to drag out and have a go............ on their knees of course.
I know they will work just fine.
Over the years, I've seen people, (who somehow missed getting to their feet), make the drop at Waimea on their knees, riding the same type of boards.

But if you feel that those aren't going to be long enough, I can dig up a 50 + pound, 11'6", triple 1 1/2" spruce wood stringer, single fin, Brewer pintail and possibly even.........a 16'r.
PM me and I'll ask their owners for you........... if you're intersted.

[southpeakbrad]

Hey Buddy
I'm about your size (5'9.5", 144) and have enjoyed this thread. It makes sense about getting into waves earlier, or being able to catch waves when it's giant. But for us lighter guys on bigger boards, or guns, how do they perform in giant surf? Assuming the main variables are length and volume for purposes of this question.
By the way, that photo of Holtzman on the 5'6" F2K at JBay is epic. So, if you can paddle into big waves on a 5'6" (or something 6'0 or less) and engage the wave, what does a "gun" add?
Thanks!
Brad

[BillL]

My problem with riding really big waves on a kneeboard has always been staying on the face of the wave. I weigh 150 lbs. and used to ride 5'5"s, if the waves were glassy it wasn't as much a problem,I still had to crouch low on the board to keep the board from lifting off the face of the wave but it worked. If it had a bump on it, yahoo, airborne city!Always coaxing a bottom turn with a board barely holding on a beast of a wave got really frustrating. I knew what I wanted to do but the limitations of my boards wouldn't allow me to, except in perfect,glassy conditions.
I met Buddy in the late 80's on the North Shore through Albert Whiteman and he let me borrow a 6'1" to ride at Sunset. The board worked like a charm! I could drop in without getting air, punch off the bottom and go where I want to without worrying about losing my edge and taking my medicine. Not to sound like too much of a plug, but I finally found boards that work in decent size.
I've been inching up overall, I think it has to do with age.The smallest board I have now is 5'7". I've got a 5'7"F2k fish that works in big surf, I've surfed it at humongous Cloud Break and it handeled really well. I have a 5'10" round pin for most days that are significant in Cal. and a 6'3" "Can Do" board when it gets big and I get nervous!
I'm sure this has been said before but I think that most US kneeboarders grew up riding off the tail with the fins back,thats why we can get away with riding such smaller boards. The boys down under had their fins much further up, necessitating longer boards, plus a lot of them don't use flippers, necessitating even longer boards if you want to surf waves of consequence. It's been a separate evolution.
Unless somthing drastic happens to me, I don't think I'll ever need a board much over 6'3", to me that is a gun. It's different for different people. Baden was riding a 7'4" at Backyards and ripping on it, Simon was blazing on a 6'8", the waves were decent but not that big.That's their normal size boards for waves that big.We were brought up differently that's all. It's awesome being able to see everyone's point of view and where people are taking it to. Enough of this Bull#%*t about how we're not doing enough to promote the sport. We're witnessing the growth right now,on this site. Thanks, Bill