Arm paddle vs fins--which offers more thrust?

[MIK911]

What will get you into more waves: arm paddling or fin kicking(without paddling). I know there's a zillion variables--paddling strength, type of fins, etc., but I was always under the impression that kicking w/ fins offer a lot more propulsion than arm paddling, then I came across this old tread:


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DavidW
Legend (Contribution King!)



Joined: 25 Mar 2003
Posts: 195
Location: san diego
Posted: Thu May 29, 2003 7:33 am Post subject:


One armed paddling has become pretty much a thing of the past as boards have gotten longer and thicker. If you are relying on your flippers to catch waves you need to work on your paddling. Fins will never get you in to waves as well as your arms. The main reason to use flippers should be for motoring around the lineup and for that little extra blast that you need to get into those waves that you might not be in the right position to catch. Comfort should be the key feature when selecting a flipper. Nothing can ruin a long go out on a perfect day like foot cramps.
Rember, fliipers are like the boards we ride, everyone has their preferences and what works for one will not work for all.

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[WaterLogged]

I can only offer you the meager opinions of a beginner kneeboarder, but I've been surfing/bodyboarding/Paipo/matsurfing for 15 years, and I've had to propel myself into all sorts of conditions.



I love fins for getting out to the lineup. Nothing gets me out to the lineup quicker, easier and with less muscle stress than with fins.

However, once a wave is approaching, I tend to arm paddle or arm paddle/kick. I've always found that just using my legs isn't helpful. I would rather launch myself off of the bottom into the wave than kick myself into a wave. I tend to feel "stuck" just kicking. And I have a pretty powerful kick, also, considering that I have myasthenia gravis. I feel like I can "pull" myself into the wave using my arms (and cupped hands, of course) more effectively than "kick" myself into the wave. And I pull pretty hard, too. My fins are used for extra quick bursts of propulsion into the wave, but if it's a very late drop and I am already feeling the suck (which I hate) I've always found that I have more luck arm paddling myself out of trouble.

I can't explain the physics of it all. I don't know if it has to do with wave mechanics and the approaching swell - how water is feeding back into the swell and lying on top of the board and arm paddling/pulling gives us better leverage? The fins or channels on the board are eventually going to grab water, it's a just a matter of *when*. Does arm paddling with our legs out of the way allow the board to "do it's thing" without interference? I really don't know.

So, that's my 2 cents. I am sure that the real kneeboarders on here can give you a better answer, but that's my experience so far. I have been arm paddling my kneeboard - but the crappy conditions around here have only allowed me to take it out twice.

[Kev]

Some of the Sponge Boys can take a wave in an instant with just a kick.
I think these guys have developed a powerful kick and the smiling faces hide the work being done under the water.

For the Kneelo with more board to get going I feel it is not going to work as well so, an initial kick out of the sit position with a board sink/stall/pop to get you up out of the water and then into a sprint arm paddle is going to generate the maximium short distance speed.
As the wave lifts behind you some additional kicking is possible and even the short board Stand-Ups can be seen kicking in a similar position.
This also puts you in a good balanced position for a short belly or prone ride just before you chose to pop to your knees ... can help with some directional changes and the choice for left or right ... and a check to make sure you are not dropping in on someone

unless of-course it is a mate who has been hogging all the waves this session.

Final note
If you are one of those Athletic, Shoulders of Rock, Olympic swimmer, Red Cordial types ... then paddle gloves can make you an unstoppable wave hog.
That's not me !!
... feeble flabby old man, Girlie, arms
... no offense to the girls and women out there.
Most of which can out paddle me.
"you go girls"

[surfhorn]

Boards under 5'8" (and under 2 3/8" thick), I kick without any arm stroke, laying completely in the H2O and pushing the board in front of me.

But I use my arms with my 6'0" board - just too long to go with only kicking.

[Freddie]

I like to paddle into the waves, I feel myself being pulled into the wave.
Instead of pushing myself into them. For me I find it easier not because
I only have one leg now. Back in the seventies when I did have two legs kicking for me, I still paddled.

[MIK911]

I tend to arm paddle or arm paddle/kick. I've always found that just using my legs isn't helpful. I would rather launch myself off of the bottom into the wave than kick myself into a wave. I feel like I can "pull" myself into the wave using my arms (and cupped hands, of course) more effectively than "kick" myself into the wave.

Is this how most guys who wear fins do it? mostly arm paddle into waves w/ final kick for a final burst?
I actually tried this for the first time last wk, and it seemed to work OK for me. Prior, I was just kicking furiously with board held way in front of me, which prevented arm paddling.

thanks

[KenM]

Mike, I think being way back and just kicking worked ok when boards were much shorter but with the longer boards most of us ride it's tougher to make the transition up to your knees from back there. If your further up, gravity will help you drop in and you can still use your legs for an extra burst.

[Nov]

Arms definitely. Fins can never replace arm paddling.

[SCGARY]

I'd say their both about equally effective for me since I am a swimmer and a cyclist, (strong arms and legs). Maybe an edge to arm paddling.
I ride a shorter board than most guys (5' 6") since I prefer to both arm paddle and kick when going for a wave.
I can out paddle most shortboarders doing this but it takes alot of effort and can wear you out quick. The shorter board allows me kick and paddle effectivelly since I don't need to move back much on the board to engage my fins. On the longer boards I've ridden I found kicking and paddling doesn't work for me because to kick effectively you need to be far enough back on the board to engage your fins, which causes the board nose to be too high for effective arm paddling. Arm paddling works best for any board when the nose is just barely above the water and the board is closer to planing. I've watched guys kicking the longer boards and it looks like they'er pushing an awful lot of water with the nose up in the air.. Seeing this I can understand why alot of the Aussie's prefer only arm paddling on the longer boards.

[WaterLogged]

I swear that there were times that I was kicking for a wave and I felt like I was just staying in the same place.

And I'm no wuss, either.

Is it just me? LOL.

[WaterLogged]

yeah, its just you!

I'm coming there to slap you.

[WaterLogged]

pop over mate! i'm always good fer a few and I'D LOVE TO RETURN THE FAVOR!

You couldn't handle me.

(what an interesting thread derailment)

[SFKneelo]

Bwaaaahaaahaaa!

9'2" Trowt and the lovely Waterlogged in a slap-fest!

THIS is the stuff of true web-browsing!

On topic...

Depends on the break and the pursuit of the wave...

Analogy here is four-wheel drive... that said, I salute those that just use two-wheel drive (no fins!)

High two: Arms. Like Nov said (and you're 6'5"? didn't know that!) Primary drive for getting out, catching waves. All around engine, and so fuel needs to be used wisely. Burn the tank, and get burned.

Low two: Legs. Good for resting the primary drive while still fighting the current. HUGE at our local. Not just rips, but resting between inside/outside... biding time for the final assault.

AWD: Arms and legs. Trowt, that's true about depending on equipment. If the equipment allows, AWD is for short bursts of energy. Leopards on gazelles... and the like.

With regards to take-offs, I'd say 'different strokes for different folks,' which is true, but, for me, it's 'different strokes for different waves.' Is it a Mutual-of-Omaha's Wild Kingdom 25 yd plus scramble to ankle-tackle your prey... or is it a casual stroke into a sweet morsel that's begged you to be taken?

[Andy]

Well-put SF

I reckon how you paddle into a wave depends on how the wave is approaching - at "my" spot the wave stands up nicely as it approaches with a lon(ish) wall and makes a bit of a wedge too. So....if youre in the sweet spot (& on the inside ) then the pop&go technique works a treat, sometimes even a quick backward stroke to sink the board into the wave gives a nice boost & off you go with virtually no paddling.

Conversely if the pack has forced you further outside, the 4wheel drive gets u into the wave at max speed when the approaching swell is flatter + gets you a bit further inside where the peak is jacking better. Surprise the longboarder who never thought a stubby little kneeboard could get up on their inside haha

Laziness seems to play a big role too, its about getting into the wave with the minimum of energy expended !

cheers

Andy

[WaterLogged]

Yes, yes, yes - fighting a current arms only gives me an asthma attack. Fins give you that extra "push" through it. In a really strong current, though, it's four on the floor and a lot of sweat.

Or you can just go with it, and see where you end up. Unfortunately, I've ended up at the business end of a jetty.